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Author Topic:   A Modern Day Miracle Man - Establishes the Supernatural Realm
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


(7)
Message 286 of 297 (527422)
10-01-2009 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by PaulK
10-01-2009 9:38 AM


Re: SOME PROPER STATISTICS
Paulk, the data you have presented to me in your last post if in fact it is accurate data has caused me to agree along with the rest of you that a plane crash prediction especially if the type of plane has not been specified is not an impressive prediction, seeing that GA are involved in accidents on an almost daily basis. I'm not as thick skulled as you think I'm I follow the evidence wherever it leads.
Yes I concede defeat on this particular point, go ahead jeer at me call me an idiot a fool, I don't mind. Note I'm only changing my position regarding the frequency of GA crashes, nothing else. I still stand my ground that commercial airliners crash less frequently.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2009 9:38 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Huntard, posted 10-01-2009 10:02 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 288 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2009 10:06 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 295 by Percy, posted 10-02-2009 6:54 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 368 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(2)
Message 287 of 297 (527424)
10-01-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Cedre
10-01-2009 9:51 AM


Re: SOME PROPER STATISTICS
Cedre writes:

Paulk, the data you have presented to me in your last post if in fact it is accurate data has caused me to agree along with the rest of you that a plane crash prediction especially if the type of plane has not been specified is not an impressive prediction, seeing that GA are involved in accidents on an almost daily basis. I'm not as thick skulled as you think I'm I follow the evidence wherever it leads.
Yes I concede defeat on this particular point, go ahead jeer at me call me an idiot a fool, I don't mind. Note I'm only changing my position regarding the frequency of GA crashes, nothing else. I still stand my ground that commercial airliners crash less frequently.


Why would we call you an idiot for admitting you were wrong. That's not something an idiot does. Idiots keep on claiming they are right.

Thank you for admitting your mistake. That earned you a nomination for PotM, and let's see what we can do about that rating of yours


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 9:51 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 10:07 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 288 of 297 (527426)
10-01-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Cedre
10-01-2009 9:51 AM


Re: SOME PROPER STATISTICS
I coudl call you a lot of things, but I won't. I suggest that you learn the same restraint.

quote:

Yes I concede defeat on this particular point, go ahead jeer at me call me an idiot a fool, I don't mind. Note I'm only changing my position regarding the frequency of GA crashes, nothing else. I still stand my ground that commercial airliners crash less frequently

Then I guess you still don't understand. Nobody said that commercial airliners crash frequently. Everyone agrees that those crashes are relatively uncommon events typically happening maybe 5-6 times a year (I think that we can assume that planecrashinfo.com is reasonably complete for those. On a quick glance I found 4 for 2008 and 7 for 2007.)

However TB Joshua DIDN'T successfully predict any crashes of commercial airliners. That is why it is wrong to use the figures for commercial airliners - BECAUSE they are rare, compared to the sum of the various types of crashes used to claim success.

The simple lesson is be consistent. Use the same rules for determining success as for determining the chance of success through guessing. It seems obvious to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 9:51 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Perdition, posted 10-01-2009 1:44 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


(1)
Message 289 of 297 (527427)
10-01-2009 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Huntard
10-01-2009 10:02 AM


Re: SOME PROPER STATISTICS
It's about time my ratings went up! I'll make a terrific PotM
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Huntard, posted 10-01-2009 10:02 AM Huntard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by tuffers, posted 10-01-2009 10:46 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
tuffers
Member (Idle past 3349 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 290 of 297 (527436)
10-01-2009 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Cedre
10-01-2009 10:07 AM


Re: SOME PROPER STATISTICS
I agree with Huntard. Fair play to you for finally accepting the statistics.

What might be interesting is the next time your man makes a prediction, you could submit a post immediately and we could look at previous statistics for such an event and debate how likely it is to be fulfilled, within what timescale, how specific it is, etc.

Hopefully it won't be anything too morbid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 10:07 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1310 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 291 of 297 (527487)
10-01-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by PaulK
10-01-2009 10:06 AM


Re: SOME PROPER STATISTICS
Darn you. Not only did you show that crashes are common, you got Cedre to admit he was wrong. How am I supposed to wow him with my predicitive abilities when planes crash on the days I mentioned in my second prophecy. You take the fun out of everything with those "facts" and "figures" and "statistics." {sigh}
This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by PaulK, posted 10-01-2009 10:06 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 2146 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 292 of 297 (527636)
10-02-2009 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Cedre
10-01-2009 5:57 AM


Re: Back to the healing
Cedre writes:

Healing can only come from the belief that God can. It is God's will to heal people, but their Faith/disbelief sometimes get in the way. Healing is not always instant. Sometimes it takes a period of time. Sometimes it never comes!I guess for these aforesaid individuals it never came perhaps due to their disbelieve or perhaps God said to them My grace is sufficient for you like he said to Paul when he prayed to be healed for his own medical condition, a thorn in his side.

If healing can only come from God to a person that truly believes than why go to TB Joshua? If it only takes truly believing that God can heal you than you wouldn't need TB Joshua at all, right?

You, being a Christian Cedre, how can you be sure that TB Joshua isn't a false prophet, as that bible warns Christians to be weary of?

--------------

I wanted to point out a couple of these so call miraculous videos that are on YouTube: Instant Baby video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpO-ZmlMH0A

What exactly is so miraculous about this? How am I to know that this women wasn't in labor before the cameras where turned to her? Do you think just because she is there that she can't be in labor? Do you think that labor always has to be a lot of screaming and pain and pushing?

Well giving birth is not always such a big production with screaming and pain and pushing. If this woman is experienced in giving birth and has mastered the techniques of managing her own pain she would be so focused that you would never know she was in labor. I should know Cedre, I am a woman that has three sons. With my last boy, labor and deliver went so easy with him, I never made a sound other than my breathing and he was delivered with only two and a half pushes.

I've seen smoother births than this on video that never claimed to be miracles.

Moving on to "leg cancer" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpajHwwuzig

I don't even know where to been here. In the video that Catholic Scientist posted, I saw a bunch of these, people with 'leg cancer' on the prayer card (or cure card or whatever they call that paper that has their infliction written on it.) As I've mentioned in my other posts there is no such thing as "leg cancer", there are cancers that can effect the legs, cancers of the bone, sarcomas, etc. Cancers by definition are a class of diseases in which a group of cells display uncontrolled growth. All of these so called "cancers" in TBJ's videos appear to be ulcers, more likely caused by flesh eating bacterias and untreated sores.

What this man in the video has is not cancer. I can't be certain what this is (if it's even real) because the quality of the video is so crappy but it's definitely not "leg cancer". It appears more likely that it's an abscess from an infected puncture wound. If it's real at all, then it looks as if the abscess has rupture and the pink stuff is puss mixed with blood coming out of the wound.

What would cause the abscess to suddenly rupture, you may ask?
An increase in blood pressure from all the frenzied excitement going on around him coupled with the contraction of the calf muscle when he stands up on the leg.
Pow, abscess ruptures, pain is relieved and he can now walk on the leg. If he keeps the wound clean it might even heal up in a week. Nothing miraculous here!

Hey wait...is this the same floor that the woman gave birth on? eew!!!


"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein

"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 5:57 AM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Cedre, posted 10-02-2009 2:38 AM SammyJean has responded

    
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 293 of 297 (527659)
10-02-2009 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by SammyJean
10-02-2009 12:07 AM


Re: Back to the healing
If healing can only come from God to a person that truly believes than why go to TB Joshua? If it only takes truly believing that God can heal you than you wouldn't need TB Joshua at all, right?

No, not quite, the bible says in James 5:14-16

quote:
(14) Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (15) and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him. (16) Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working.

From this passage there are several things to take home; firstly , the elders of the church are gathered and they pray over the sick individual, anointing him with oil, and this prayer should be accompanied by a level of faith, as stated in V.15, and lastly Christians are urged to pray for one another for healing; so its common to go to a fellow Christian seeking prayer, but most importantly note the last verse stating that the prayer of a righteous man is very effective.

quote:
Mat 9:28-29 And when he had come into the house, the blind men came to him; and Jesus said to them, Have you faith that I am able to do this? They said to him, Yes, Lord. (29) Then he put his hand on their eyes, saying, As your faith is, let it be done to you.

Luk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And being afraid they marvelled, saying one to another, Who then is this, that he commandeth even the winds and the water, and they obey him?

Mat 8:13 Then Jesus said to the officer, "You may go home now. Your faith has made it happen." Right then his servant was healed.



Basically faith is essential in all cases, whether you pray for your own healing all alone or whether you involve others in the prayer, all parties should approach God confidently without doubting. but again God may have his reason for not healing an individual just like he refused to heal Paul, perhaps its a test of faith, I'm not sure but I do know that without faith its not possible to be healed.

What exactly is so miraculous about this? How am I to know that
this women wasn't in labor before the cameras where turned to her?

Do you have any proof for this assertion?

This is not the only woman who has given birth on TB Joshua's command, there are others. It's highly unlikely that these women were already in labor before TB Joshua reached them, because a service at the SCOAN consist of two parts the first part comprises sermonizing, also during this time prophecies if any are delivered, only after this first part is over the healing part of the service gets underway, and its during this time that the sick are prayed including these women. Yet there is no indication that this women are in labor before the prophet reaches them, they are calm and collected observing the other sick people, and then all of sudden when the prophet starts praying for them their water breaks within seconds and the child is born subsequently. The thing about these women is they go the SCOAN because of pregnancy complications, some of them cannot give birth naturally only through a cesarean section, because the baby is positioned wrongly, etc ,and only an operation will help them, they don't treat the SCOAN as a maternity ward they go there only in cases of birth difficulties.

If this woman is experienced in giving birth and has mastered the techniques of managing her own pain she would be so focused that you would never know she was in labor.

There is no evidence that the women who have given birth at the SCOAN were already mothers prior to giving birth there. but what about the instant births, I understand that child birth is a process and it can last for hours, I have heard other cases of instant births but they are very rare, and I could hardly find any reports of them on the web. Yet every women who is prayed for at the SCOAN give birth within a few minutes if not seconds.

as to the leg cancers, they are probably tumorous outgrowths on the legs and therefore are said to be cancers not that they are the result of a leg cancer, but sores that result from cancer. That these aren't actual cancerous wounds without any proof is just another of your increasing claims. You must also know that the SCOAN doesn't put anyone on the prayer line unless they come with a doctor's certificate showing what their problem is. this is a requirement. There is also a form that all international visitors should fill out, on it they must state exactly what their problem is and bring along the necessary medical documents to confirm their conditons.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by SammyJean, posted 10-02-2009 12:07 AM SammyJean has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by SammyJean, posted 10-02-2009 12:57 PM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 294 of 297 (527665)
10-02-2009 4:19 AM


Product Description
This book has been written by a prominent Dutch theologian who has authored more than 100 books on reformed evangelical theology. Until recently he was anti-charismatic in his personal theology. That was until his daughter, who was sterile and unable to have children, visited the church of TB Joshua in Nigeria and was prayed for, and subsequently healed. She recently gave birth! http://www.amazon.com/T-B-Joshua-Biography-The.../1852403543

........Here's a link to a another birth miracle http://www.all.../3456647-prophetic-birth-a-wednesday-wonder

Heres a link to video clip of someone who was healed of spinal degeneration http://www.livevideo..../tb-joshua-prays-for-a-terrible.aspx

Random miracles:
http://www.livevideo..../witness-up-close-miracles-of-j.aspx

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=848793576ece4258...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=64541215852340105...

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 295 of 297 (527682)
10-02-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Cedre
10-01-2009 9:51 AM


Re: SOME PROPER STATISTICS
Cedre writes:

Yes I concede defeat on this particular point, go ahead jeer at me call me an idiot a fool, I don't mind.

The fool is the person who thinks less of people who are mistaken while ignoring his own fallibility.

The advantage in debate does tend to those with the greater command of facts, but there is no worse mistake than failure to admit obvious error. The poster boy for this condition in a now long forgotten debate with then candidate Jimmy Carter was President Ford claiming that Poland was not dominated by communist Russia.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 9:51 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 2146 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 296 of 297 (527727)
10-02-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Cedre
10-02-2009 2:38 AM


Re: Back to the healing
Cedre writes:

Do you have any proof for this assertion?

I don't need to give you proof of anything. You are the one that needs to show proof since you are the one making outlandish claims here.

Cedre writes:

It's highly unlikely that these women were already in labor before TB Joshua reached them, because a service at the SCOAN consist of two parts

Like I said earlier, it is completely possible for a woman to manage her labor pains, to the point that she can go on with doing what ever she is doing at the time, you (the outsider) would never know she's in labor.

Cedre writes:

and then all of sudden when the prophet starts praying for them their water breaks within seconds and the child is born subsequently.

This is not what I see in the video and that is what I'm going by, the video evidence. I see the camera is focused on another person and as soon as this woman starts to crown (baby's head starts to come out) TBJ and the camera crew rush over to her. He is obviously praying for some one else at the time the baby starts to come out.

Cedre writes:

The thing about these women is they go the SCOAN because of pregnancy complications, some of them cannot give birth naturally only through a cesarean section, because the baby is positioned wrongly, etc ,and only an operation will help them, they don't treat the SCOAN as a maternity ward they go there only in cases of birth difficulties.

This is not the case of this particular woman, is it? The video never showed her 'cure' request card. At the beginning there is a woman that's card said that the baby was in the wrong position but this is not the one that has the baby, plus this women only looks to be in the first part of her third trimester or is carrying a small fetus. Cases like these it only takes a good midwife to coax the baby into proper position.

Cedre writes:

There is no evidence that the women who have given birth at the SCOAN were already mothers prior to giving birth there. but what about the instant births, I understand that child birth is a process and it can last for hours, I have heard other cases of instant births but they are very rare, and I could hardly find any reports of them on the web.

...and there is no evidence that she hasn't given birth twelve times is there?

Yes, labor most often does last hours. I'm not the one claiming instant births, I'm claiming the women are well focused at managing there own labor pains and nothing more.

Cedre writes:

as to the leg cancers, they are probably tumorous outgrowths on the legs and therefore are said to be cancers not that they are the result of a leg cancer, but sores that result from cancer. That these aren't actual cancerous wounds without any proof is just another of your increasing claims. You must also know that the SCOAN doesn't put anyone on the prayer line unless they come with a doctor's certificate showing what their problem is. this is a requirement. There is also a form that all international visitors should fill out, on it they must state exactly what their problem is and bring along the necessary medical documents to confirm their conditons.

My increasing claims? Really? Once again, you are the one that has made the outlandish claims here. The videos that I have seen are not of necrotic tumors. Sometimes tumor growths can become necrotic near the surface of the skin and become infected with fungus or bacteria when they have grown to large or too fast for the angiogenesis that is required to maintain them. But this does not appear to be the case here. These don't appear to be tumors at all.

If these people have doctors that are claiming that these are cancers then they need to find a different doctor. True medical documentation would say what kind of cancer the person is suffering from, not just "leg cancer".

Cedre, if your going to convince me that this is a modern day miracle man you are going to have to do much better then this.
Remember it's you that has brought this up and made these claims. I remain totally unconvinced!

Edited by SammyJean, : No reason given.


"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein

"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Cedre, posted 10-02-2009 2:38 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12157
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 297 of 297 (730131)
06-24-2014 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Cedre
09-24-2009 5:18 AM


Re: Another prophecy - Universal Studios fire outbreak
These guys put on quite a show!

Actual footage from the church

These people are sure involved in something. Some would say mass brainwashing or mass confirmation bias.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 5:18 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
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