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Author Topic:   Questions about the living cell
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 76 of 182 (527626)
10-01-2009 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 7:08 PM


Re: Some answers
'My holy book' also happens to be the historical account of the creation, fall of man, the incarnation of God's Son, and the redemption of mankind by Him. Like it or not, the symbol of the crucified One is on every single cell in your body.

Other than the fact that your holy book is a collection of bronze age mythology and not science. This is a science topic, no matter what, your book is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Edited by bluescat48, : clarity

Edited by bluescat48, : more clarity


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 3878 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 77 of 182 (527628)
10-01-2009 10:25 PM


It's been twice I watched that video, and it sure is interesting because it is clear for all the abiogenesis n00bs out there including myself.

The question I'm always asking myself though is this one: Why don't we found any of those proto-cells like that in our oceans ? (or lakes, etc. etc.) I mean, They probably have the same content of amino acids, nucleotides, etc. as the primitive soup. Why isn't this happening all the time ?

If I put all the required ingredients in a water bucket here in my room, and wait, will simple thermodynamics act as they do in the video ? Why, or why not ?


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mark24
Member (Idle past 4432 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


(1)
Message 78 of 182 (527662)
10-02-2009 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:07 PM


Re: Facts?
Calypsis,

The 'Big Bang' was not observed. It is not testable, repeatable, nor verifiable.

And yet you list creation by god as one of your facts. Logical fallacy: special pleading.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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mark24
Member (Idle past 4432 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 79 of 182 (527664)
10-02-2009 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 7:02 PM


Re: Facts?
Calypsis,

Not unless you can demonstrate it.

The truth is...you can't.

And when you apply the standards you expect of your opponents to yourself, it turns out you can't demonstrate that god did it, either.

Again, special pleading.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2881 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(2)
Message 80 of 182 (527667)
10-02-2009 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by slevesque
10-01-2009 10:25 PM


The question I'm always asking myself though is this one: Why don't we found any of those proto-cells like that in our oceans ?

It's quite possible that it does happen, but you have to remember that these locations are already teaming with unicellular life, and anything and everything is regarded as food! The one thing that abiogenesis had going for it was the complete lack of active predators

Now, I'm no chemist, but it is also entirely possible that the environmental conditions that were favourable for the development of the lipid vesicles (pH, minerals, organic content, gas concentrations, etc) are not now generally observed - owing to both the vastly different atmospheric conditions, and the post-abiogenetic abundance of life.

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2881 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 81 of 182 (527668)
10-02-2009 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by cavediver
10-01-2009 6:32 PM


Re: Some answers
Calypsis4 writes:

When was it ever? Prove that it could have been.

at this stage we're more interested in looking at plausibility. Can we agree that we have a workable model of how protocells could have developed in the early earth?

How does the above question score a message rating of 2???

It's a good job that rating is anonymous 'cos I'd hate to look THAT stupid...

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1342 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(3)
Message 82 of 182 (527669)
10-02-2009 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 7:08 PM


Laminin Shaminin
Hahaha!

That's so cute.

Here's an actual electron micrograph of some laminins:

Doesn't look quite so cross like, does it?

Here's a blog discussing this particular bit of Creationist dishonesty (written, by the way, by a Christian).


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1342 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(1)
Message 83 of 182 (527671)
10-02-2009 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:15 PM


Re: Some answers
Without Chromatin?

Sure. Look very closely at your hand. Hmm... okay, use a microscope. See those tiny, tiny little dots dividing by themselves. Them's bacteria.

Bacteria don't have chromatin (although, occasionally, you can find references to bacterial chromatin, this is not correct usage since the DNA assemblages of bacteria - and some Archaea - are fundamentally different from the chromatin of Eukarya, in particular they have no histones).


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mark24
Member (Idle past 4432 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 84 of 182 (527673)
10-02-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dr Jack
10-02-2009 5:17 AM


Non-topic sniping hidden
If you squint you can see Jesus...

{Don't do this - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Non-topic sniping hidden.


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1342 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 85 of 182 (527676)
10-02-2009 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by cavediver
10-02-2009 4:43 AM


One vs. Two tailed lipids
I have to admit I'm rather dubious about the example given, as far as I am aware (and according to my coursebooks) only two tailed lipids will form liposomes, one tailed lipids (such as the fatty acids shown) form simpler structures called micelles which have extremely limited internal space. Worse, even if sufficient two tailed lipids formed to create a liposome these structures are disrupted by the presence of one tailed lipids so they'd not last long unless protected somehow.

I'm assuming the actual science behind the cute video covers this objection, do you have any references from a more scientific source?


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2881 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 86 of 182 (527677)
10-02-2009 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Dr Jack
10-02-2009 5:51 AM


Re: One vs. Two tailed lipids
Check here for more layman videos on Szostak's work on lipids, micelles, and vesicles. You're probably more informed in this area than I to comment. I keep meaning to look at the original pubs but time is scarce...

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4451 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 87 of 182 (527697)
10-02-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Granny Magda
10-01-2009 7:29 PM


Re: Some answers
Just this morning though, I found a grilled cheese sandwich with the face of Richard Dawkins on it...

Which holds together what as designated by what ancient word of truth?

Document it please. I did.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4451 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 88 of 182 (527698)
10-02-2009 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dr Jack
10-02-2009 5:17 AM


Re: Laminin Shaminin
That's so cute

That statement was not cute:

Let me show you something:

Do you recognize this object:


Click to enlarge

From a different angle it looks like this:


Click to enlarge

So does changing the angle or viewing the same object from a different perspective change the shape of the object? No. Then does fact that Laminin is flexible as to connects one cell to another change the fact that its basic design is a cross? No.

The truth is that Laminin holds every single living cell in the world together and the fact that an ancient text reveals that the crucified One 'holds all thing together' and that He does so by the 'word of His power' verily shouts an eternal truth that cannot be ignored...not by honest people.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4451 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 89 of 182 (527699)
10-02-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by bluescat48
10-01-2009 10:18 PM


Re: Some answers
"Other than the fact that your holy book is a collection of bronze age mythology and not science. This is a science topic, no matter what, your book is irrelevant to the topic at hand."

The subject here is 'creation vs evolution'. If you don't wish to discuss the Creator then why do you come to such a venue to begin with?


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Dman
Member (Idle past 4255 days)
Posts: 38
Joined: 02-26-2009


(1)
Message 90 of 182 (527703)
10-02-2009 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 7:02 PM


Re: Facts?
quote:
So? It's a model. No one says it's the absolute truth. But this model is a lot more plausible than "poof".

Not unless you can demonstrate it.

The truth is...you can't.


Unless you plan to demonstrate a cell being supernaturally created. Stop the special pleading, it is intellectually dishonest.

You have been given a plausible model that was provided by Cavediver. The fact that you reject it on personal grounds really has no bearing on the plausibility of the model.

Essentially you are saying a non-model approach (poof) is better than a modeled approach.

Ask yourself: Are you being intellectually honest here? Or are you just trying to talk the loudest?

Edited by Dman, : Spelling

Edited by Dman, : Grammar


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