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Author Topic:   Creationists to give away free copies of The Origin of Species
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 27 (527942)
10-03-2009 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Jack
10-02-2009 4:47 PM


I wonder...

First of all, you gotta admit that the origin of species isn't exactly a book that most normal people find interesting. I'm willing to bet that this is what they are counting on, and that most people's attention span would only allow them to read the first 50 or so pages of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Jack, posted 10-02-2009 4:47 PM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 10-03-2009 12:28 PM Taz has responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 178 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 17 of 27 (527943)
10-03-2009 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taz
10-03-2009 12:26 PM


Quite possibly, however, I'd think it's reasonably likely that everyone on a college campus knows someone who has studied enough to know what a pile of horseshit the intro is. I can see this backfiring.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 10-03-2009 12:26 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 10-03-2009 1:02 PM Dr Jack has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 18 of 27 (527947)
10-03-2009 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Jack
10-03-2009 12:28 PM


You really think so? I was a TA for some physics classes and I can definitely tell you there's a lot of clueless college students out there. One time a girl asked me if the stars were like the sun how come they are so small? Myself and other TA's kinda looked at her in disbelief. But the point is I suspect those are the kind of people they're aiming to get to, not the people who already have enough sense to ignore them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Jack, posted 10-03-2009 12:28 PM Dr Jack has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by bluescat48, posted 10-03-2009 1:54 PM Taz has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2262 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 19 of 27 (527952)
10-03-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taz
10-03-2009 1:02 PM


I was a TA for some physics classes and I can definitely tell you there's a lot of clueless college students out there. One time a girl asked me if the stars were like the sun how come they are so small? Myself and other TA's kinda looked at her in disbelief.

I can see where you are coming from, I have seen the same thing. Like one question I have heard, "When snow melts, what happens to the white?" By the way is "TA" teachers assistant, I don't recall the abbr.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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 Message 18 by Taz, posted 10-03-2009 1:02 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Taz, posted 10-03-2009 2:58 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 27 (527959)
10-03-2009 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by bluescat48
10-03-2009 1:54 PM


TA = troubled asker

Edit

Also TA = teacher assassin

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


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 Message 19 by bluescat48, posted 10-03-2009 1:54 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 769 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 21 of 27 (527985)
10-03-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
10-02-2009 12:12 AM


"Cause them to love"?
Taz writes:

Mr Jack, I don't agree that this is wonderful. Most people aren't educated enough to be able to understand a fraction of what's in the book. This is not to mention the patience it takes to read the writing style.

I don't agree either that this is wonderful. But I do so for a different reason. I don't subscribe to your characterization, Taz, of Darwin's "On The Origin Of Species" as too difficult, either to understand the subject matter, or to read Darwin's prose. Darwin writes in a surprisingly modern style, and he explains his theory with remarkable clarity.

My reason for disagreeing that this ploy of Cameron c.s. is wonderful is that they not only try to discredit Darwin with the usual tripe that has already been refuted countless times, but also that they have the audacity to hitch a ride on the hype around the anniversary. Their revolting plan to subvert the actual text with an introduction full of lies is so contrary to supposed Christian righteousness that it beggars belief that they could even think of such a plan.

Besides, I don't understand why they think it's necessary, because Kirk said, somewhere at the beginning of the video, that:

quote:
Only God can take the sinful heart of a man or a woman, and cause them to love that which is right, and just, and good.

If that is true, then why bother? Apparently, God himself can't be bothered to do this, or atheism wouldn't be on the rise, as Kirk mentioned seconds earlier. Or do they think their omnipotent God can't manage on his own and needs their help?

And what does "cause them to love" mean exactly? How genuine is "caused love"?

What utter tripe!

Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.

Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.

Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 10-02-2009 12:12 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 10-04-2009 8:14 PM Parasomnium has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 27 (528153)
10-04-2009 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Parasomnium
10-03-2009 6:19 PM


Re: "Cause them to love"?
Prasomnium writes:

I don't agree either that this is wonderful. But I do so for a different reason. I don't subscribe to your characterization, Taz, of Darwin's "On The Origin Of Species" as too difficult, either to understand the subject matter, or to read Darwin's prose. Darwin writes in a surprisingly modern style, and he explains his theory with remarkable clarity.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Darwin's book is too difficult to read or understand. But you gotta admit, most people simply don't have the patience or time to sit down and read the whole damn book. They might be ok with reading the first 50 or so pages, but getting through the whole thing and absolving it all?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Parasomnium, posted 10-03-2009 6:19 PM Parasomnium has responded

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 Message 24 by Parasomnium, posted 10-05-2009 2:49 AM Taz has not yet responded

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 2188 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 23 of 27 (528159)
10-04-2009 11:10 PM


I wonder if creationists know that the ideas Darwin came up with are hardly the same thing as the modern theory of evolution?

Or is that the point? Attack evolution on the strawman of Darwin rather than the actual theory?


  
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 769 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 24 of 27 (528171)
10-05-2009 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
10-04-2009 8:14 PM


Re: "Cause them to love"?
Taz writes:

[...] you gotta admit, most people simply don't have the patience or time to sit down and read the whole damn book.

That's a different matter, and it's a worrying trend. Not long now and most people's eyes will glaze over at the mention of the word 'book'.

Sad.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 25 of 27 (528181)
10-05-2009 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Parasomnium
10-05-2009 2:49 AM


The ironies of Life
I don't know, I have a little more faith in people. I like to think that people will surprise in very interesting ways.

For instance, many people who play MMOs, or even video games in general, often utilize the scientific method in order to achieve a desired result in a game. After all, many games these days are more than just shooting your way through a level. Many times, they require thought and precision. This is especially true of MMOs where a player cannot cheat and must abide by the rules set out in the game world the developers have created. Players will make observations, collect data, test hypothesis until they find a workable solution to overcome a problem, and they will enjoy doing it too because it is a problem to be overcome. Now imagine if educators could harness this potential - think about how many potential scientists are there right now on WOW.

I think humanity is on the verge of a scientific revolution. Just like most scientists don't accept "God did it" as an explanation, hardcore gamers don't subscribe to the idea of luck - they work to understand the rules of the game and use those rules to create statistics, make predictions and improve their strategies. As more and more people get into gaming, the number of people with an intuitive understanding of how science works will only increase. All it needs is a catalyst.

Perhaps that's why Creationists are handing out copies of Darwin's "The Origin of Species," they sense the growing threat and so are attempting to discredit it. But life is ironic, and in attempting to avoid their fate, they may serve only to hasten it.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Parasomnium, posted 10-05-2009 2:49 AM Parasomnium has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by anglagard, posted 10-05-2009 5:13 AM Izanagi has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 26 of 27 (528188)
10-05-2009 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Izanagi
10-05-2009 4:19 AM


Re: The ironies of Life
Izanagi writes:

The ironies of Life
I don't know, I have a little more faith in people. I like to think that people will surprise in very interesting ways.

Sometimes it is the surprise in interesting ways I am most worried about.

For instance, many people who play MMOs, or even video games in general, often utilize the scientific method in order to achieve a desired result in a game. After all, many games these days are more than just shooting your way through a level. Many times, they require thought and precision. This is especially true of MMOs where a player cannot cheat and must abide by the rules set out in the game world the developers have created. Players will make observations, collect data, test hypothesis until they find a workable solution to overcome a problem, and they will enjoy doing it too because it is a problem to be overcome. Now imagine if educators could harness this potential - think about how many potential scientists are there right now on WOW.

Many people who 'play' such games for real, such as in Iraq or Afghanistan may have a different perspective. Have you considered the effect politics, or indeed public opinion at large, may suppress such optimism?

I think humanity is on the verge of a scientific revolution. Just like most scientists don't accept "God did it" as an explanation, hardcore gamers don't subscribe to the idea of luck - they work to understand the rules of the game and use those rules to create statistics, make predictions and improve their strategies. As more and more people get into gaming, the number of people with an intuitive understanding of how science works will only increase. All it needs is a catalyst.

Optimistic indeed! I just hope enough people can understand algebra to make the US a bit more than janitors, fast food service workers, and cashiers (!).

Perhaps that's why Creationists are handing out copies of Darwin's "The Origin of Species," they sense the growing threat and so are attempting to discredit it. But life is ironic, and in attempting to avoid their fate, they may serve only to hasten it.

Well, it appears at least in the US 'none of the above' is growing at quite a pace when asked about religious affiliation. Yet only around 1% claim atheism. It seems a bit weird when one 'personal relationship with God' is cursed by another claimed 'personal relationship with god.'

The preface to Origin of Species will go down in history the same way as Thomas Bowlder's rewriting of Shakespeare and Gibbions has, it created a new verb. Except instead of bowdlerization, we will have cameronization, meaning prefacing a book by someone too stupid to know bananas (or any other food crop or animal) have undergone extensive genetic selection.

Not to mention Marijuana (or mention it as well, to be honest).

Perhaps such a definition may be broadened to include any classic work. Such as a preface to War and Peace by Sarah Palin, Les Miserables by Newt Gingrich, Or The Holy Bible by Pat Robertson (as one example among many).

Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Edited by anglagard, : sometimes fewer words mean better communication


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
ó Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. Itís us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Izanagi, posted 10-05-2009 4:19 AM Izanagi has responded

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 Message 27 by Izanagi, posted 10-05-2009 6:06 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3289 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 27 of 27 (528194)
10-05-2009 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by anglagard
10-05-2009 5:13 AM


Re: The ironies of Life
At the risk of going off-topic, I would like to say that the current atmosphere does seem bleak. Creationists do seem to be gaining ground, at least politically, and they are working hard to spread their message.

I'll sometimes say it, but I don't really believe Americans are stupid. I think Americans are complacent right now. America has stood unchallenged and so the people have lost focus.

And perhaps creationists will be victorious and science education will be gutted with pseudo-science. But something will happen to hopefully change that.

That something will be the rise and dominance of India and China in the technology fields. Already China has begun to turn its eye towards Energy Technology(ET) in an effort to not only combat global warming and achieve greater energy independence, but to establish itself as the leader in ET in the hopes of exporting those technologies. This at a time when people in the US still debate as to whether or not global warming is a real problem. India has recently launched a probe to the moon which is a symbolic flexing of its technological muscle. After all, how many countries can say they've done that?

This will be the next challenge for the American people. India and China will most likely achieve technological dominance, and in fact the edge may go to China since China does not have to contend with religious dogma. But Americans will wake up and realize that their complacency and reliance on pseudo-science has come at a great cost. The scientists have left the country, the children are ignorant of even basic scientific theory, and America, once the leader in technological advance, is slowly lagging behind.

Cameron and his like can pass out Darwin's book. They can convince as many people as they want to believe what they're saying. They can argue for Biblical literalism and pseudo-science and succeed in introducing it into the Science classrooms. Their actions will have consequences. The day will come when the American star will wane and the people will have to make a choice - either to continue to follow a course that has led to the erosion of American technological prowess and accept the fact that from now on all new advances will be made in Indian and Chinese laboratories and new military technology will be in the hands of the Chinese and Indian governments, or throw off the shackles of ignorance and embrace science in a new enlightenment that will allow America to compete with the coming Indian and Chinese juggernauts. I believe Americans will make the right choice.


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