$50 to anyone who can prove to me Evolution is a lie.

Actually you are wrong...evolution is falsifiable and there have been several threads dedicated to this subject. The fact that evolution has been consistently supported by the evidence from multiple disciplines from paleontology to molecular biology is why it is a theory and not a hypothesis...it is a testable hypothesis as well.
Thus, you could go out an try to 1)falsify it yourself 2) look for data that exists to falsify it and attempt to collect your 50 bucks.creationism has no testable or falsifiable hypothesis...it is merely a "goddidit because I believe it and some other guys say so to" hypothesis....it is not science.You also have just shown you do not understand how science works..one does not prove things in science...every hypothesis, theory and law is tentative i.e. subject to revision or complete rejection upon the novel discovery or the results of experimentation that yields results inconsistent with the basics of the hypothesis/theory/law....this is also the opposite of religion based creationism which is based on unchangeable dogma that is forced to ignore contradictory evidence or forced to use completely illogical constructions to try to explain its way out from under data which shows it is wrong.But I do agree with you on one thing....the betting aspect of threads like this are rather uninteresting.

Having read this thread I find it saddening and an incredible testimony to how utterly the American school system has failed this poor kid. He has no clue what science actually is or how to go about supporting a hypothesis, the logical deficits displayed are also appalling i.e. to prove something is does not exist you have to prove it exists? and he dismisses science as religion offhandedly while at the same time acknowldeging he has no background in the fields he is dismissing...and on top of it he clearly thinks that accepting scientific theories would somehow negate his spiritual life...truly terrible.

quote:

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Do you realize in any way what you are saying? If a rabbit's fur turns white because of it's area of snow for camoflauge, it, or it's lineage evolve into different creatures? (Please use the term evolved lightly ) No of course not, the fur might carry over to the offspring, therefore the offspring also have white fur. This is how genetics work.

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You may want to watch who you are lecturing on genetics since your next paragraph demonstrates you do not know how it actually works. In any case, you just described an example of evolution..change in allele frequencies over time. White fur rabbit variants have a selective advantage due to the difficulty of being spotted by predators RELATIVE to darker coat colors. Thus they have a greater chance of reproducing. If the trait is heritable they will pass the trait to their offspring and those who share the trait (assuming white fur stays an advantage) will also have this advantage...over time the trait will go to high frequency in the population...this is an type of observation that has been made countless times in the wild and in the lab.

quote:

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If I work out at the gym for basketball (adapting to the game, have to get stronger to compete, ya know) and I gain muscle, your saying I or my kids (in the future) or totally different creatures??!?! No I am PE the same person/(creature.)

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And you cannot pass on your workout to your offsping thus you example is a Lamarkian strawman and irrelevant. This fallacy you describe has been recognized as false for over 150 years.

quote:

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Show me, Back it up! How do I know anything you say is true? Explain in greater detail, C'mon I want to see this genetic sequence data, or the the evolutionary trees!

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Somehow I truly doubt you could even have the faintest grasp of what a tree tells you or how it is reconstructed much less doing it yourself from raw sequences...but you are very right not to take somones word for things as true...I could post links to literally thousands of papers with sequences and phylogenies..I will just take a list of this months entries..
for raw sequences, you can access the raw data atwwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.govThis is where all genetic data sets from published and much unpublished work is deposited...lets see a few references on evolutionary trees..please note, these are entries for just the last 30 days...there have been decades of research on this subject so the actual total is far far higher...i.e. tens of thousands....I would say Mark24 and I have a bit more than incredulity to base our thinking on....Items 1-20 of 58 of 3 Next1: Rocha MP, Cruz MP, Fernandes A, Waldschmidt AM, Silva-Junior JC, Pompolo SG. Related Articles, Links
Longitudinal differentiation in Melipona mandacaia (Hymenoptera, Meliponini) chromosomes.
Hereditas. 2003;138(2):133-7.
PMID: 12921165 [PubMed - in process]
2: Chenoweth SF, Hughes JM. Related Articles, Links
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PMID: 12919476 [PubMed - in process]
3: Galindez EJ, Estecondo S, Casanave EB. Related Articles, Links
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4: Ding Y, Ortelli F, Rossiter LC, Hemingway J, Ranson H. Related Articles, Links
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BMC Genomics. 2003 Aug 13 [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 12914673 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
5: Kawakoshi A, Hyodo S, Yasuda A, Takei Y. Related Articles, Links
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PMID: 12914537 [PubMed - in process]
6: Ishizaki H. Related Articles, Links
[Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of Sporothrix schenckii]
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PMID: 12913803 [PubMed - in process]
7: Bahr U, Schondorf E, Handermann M, Darai G. Related Articles, Links
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8: DeSantis TZ, Dubosarskiy I, Murray SR, Andersen GL. Related Articles, Links
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PMID: 12912825 [PubMed - in process]
9: Herbeck JT, Novembre J. Related Articles, Links
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12: Guidi C, Zeppa S, Barbieri E, Zambonelli A, Polidori E, Potenza L, Stocchi V. Related Articles, Links
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14: Saito A, Fujii T, Miyashita K. Related Articles, Links
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15: Osaki M, Yamada S, Ishizawa T, Watanabe T, Shinano T, Tuah SJ, Urayama M. Related Articles, Links
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16: Osaki M, Yamada S, Ishizawa T, Watanabe T, Shinano T, Tuah SJ, Urayama M. Related Articles, Links
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17: Sullivan LC, Orgeig S, Daniels CB. Related Articles, Links
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20: Long CA, Zhang GP, George TF, Long CF. Related Articles, Links
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J Theor Biol. 2003 Sep 7;224(1):9-26.
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22: Zhu S, Fushimi H, Cai S, Komatsu K. Related Articles, Links
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PMID: 12898422 [PubMed - in process]
23: Adell T, Grebenjuk VA, Wiens M, Muller WE. Related Articles, Links
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Dev Genes Evol. 2003 Jul 24 [Epub ahead of print]
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Nat Rev Genet. 2003 Aug;4(8):598-612.
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27: Beardsley PM, Yen A, Olmstead RG. Related Articles, Links
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Evolution Int J Org Evolution. 2003 Jun;57(6):1397-410.
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Int J Syst Evol Microbiol. 2003 Jul;53(Pt 4):1175-86.
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35: Losos JB, Leal M, Glor RE, De Queiroz K, Hertz PE, Rodriguez Schettino L, Lara AC, Jackman TR, Larson A. Related Articles, Links
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37: [No authors listed] Related Articles, Links
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38: Zhu W, Brendel V. Related Articles, Links
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Structure and organization of the mitochondrial genome of the canine heartworm, Dirofilaria immitis.
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44: Martin W, Rotte C, Hoffmeister M, Theissen U, Gelius-Dietrich G, Ahr S, Henze K. Related Articles, Links
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Since this seemed to get lost in all the chatter...a very good post and point by Zealot.cheers,
M

I was just trying to compliment Zealot for at least encouraging pe to drop the closed eyes fingers in ears approach to everything being said to him...

quote:

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Ok, lets try understand the flow of the discussion re Genesis.

​

You claimed Genesis to be false because of logic. Seeing as you will only respond to logic, I brought up the science of mathematics (a rather logical science , perhaps the most logical) to point to the unlikelyhood of Evolution occuring from 'nothing' some 3 1/2 Billion years ago. If you choose to ignore that science, well then I dont think you can back up your arguments with logic anymore.

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Though mark24 is probably already typing his response I will jump in here quickly to point out one of the big mistakes you have just made. You have confused abiogenesis with evolution. The theory of evolution does not address the origin of life from non-life but rather all changes that happened after life appeared...this is a common mistake I have seen from the creationist side on this and other forums.

quote:

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How is that any different from using the Big Bang and evolutionary theory in filtering what you will, will not accept ? You will not accept Creation, because of the Big Bang theory. Everyone seems to have their blinkers on.

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Wrong again...you are equating now physics AND biology with religion...if evidence (no this does not mean assertions, your favorite passage from the bible, doctored photos of a skull with horns glued on etc. but real scientific evidence like alleles frequencies in a population that adapts to a new environment do not change over time) then scientists will either have to adapt or discard the theory of evolution. This has happened repeatedly thoughout the history of science as more and more information and insight has been accumulated....look up the protein only hypothesis of prion pathogenesis or kuru which revolutionized the idea of what can or cannot be a pathogenic substance for a recent example.but here is something for you to do if you want your religion to be accepted as scientifically valid..mind you nobody has ever been able to do it....1. propose a testable hypothesis of creation
2. explain how it is a falsifiable hypothesis
3. show the supporting evidence for the hypothesis
4. explain theoritically or empirically why the counter evidence is not valid.If you cannot do this then creationism is not science.

quote:

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PS: I dont think Christians would have much fo a problem accepting evolution (well not macro atleast, if I may use the term so loosely), if it was not so closely associated with the 'abiogenesis'.

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Except that it is not associated at all with abiogenesis..this is a typical misconception. The theory of evolution does not deal with the origin of life...only the changes in allele/trait frequencies over time since life began.

...could you give a specific cite in its context? Regardless of what Darwin may or may not have posited about abiogenesis (though he was a Christian), it was not part of his theory of evolution nor is it part of the current theory of evolution.

No problem...I may have missed that you were asking...in any case, the origin of life is a separate issue, as I and John have pointed out, from the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution is one of the most robust theories in science with huge amounts of supporting evidence from diverse disciplines...abiogenesis is another matter. There is no theory of abiogenesis...in fact, studies of the origin of life are extremely conjectural and as a science it is in its infancy...But one does not need to know how life started to study evolution.

Hi Percy,
I am no expert on behavioral genetics and certainly not in hymenptera..but I pulled up a few interesting references..Behav Genet. 2002 Mar;32(2):95-102. Related Articles, LinksConfirmation of QTL effects and evidence of genetic dominance of honeybee defensive behavior: results of colony and individual behavioral assays.Guzman-Novoa E, Hunt GJ, Uribe JL, Smith C, Arechavaleta-Velasco ME.CENIFMA-INIFAP, Metepec, Edo. de Mex., Mexico. guzmane@inifap.conacyt.mxThe stinging and guarding components of the defensive behavior of European, Africanized, hybrid, and backcross honeybees (Apis mellifera L.) were compared and analyzed at both colony and individual levels. Hybrid and Africanized backcross colonies stung as many times as Africanized ones. European backcross colonies stung more than European bees but not as many times as Africanized or Africanized backcross colonies. The degree of dominance for the number of times that worker bees stung a leather patch was estimated to be 84.3%, 200.8%, and 145.8% for hybrid, backcross European, and backcross Africanized colonies, respectively. Additionally, both guards at the colony entrance and fast-stinging workers of one European backcross colony had a significantly higher frequency of an Africanized DNA marker allele, located near "sting1," a QTL previously implicated in stinging behavior at the colony level. However, guards and fast-stinging bees from a backcross to the Africanized parental colony did not differ from control bees in their frequency for the Africanized and European markers, as would be expected if large genetic dominance effects for sting1 exist. These results support the hypothesis that genetic dominance influences the defensive behavior of honeybees and confirm the effect of sting1 on the defensiveness of individual worker bees.andJ Hered. 2000 Nov-Dec;91(6):474-9. Related Articles, LinksGenetic dissection of honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) foraging behavior.Page RE Jr, Fondrk MK, Hunt GJ, Guzman-Novoa E, Humphries MA, Nguyen K, Greene AS.Department of Entomology, University of California, Davis 95616, USA. repage@ucdavis.eduWe demonstrate the effects of a new quantitative trait locus (QTL), designated pln3, that was mapped in a backcross population derived from strains of bees selected for the amount of pollen they store in combs. We independently confirmed pln3 by demonstrating its effects on individual foraging behavior, as we did previously for QTLs pln1 and pln2 (Hunt et al. 1995). QTL pln2 is very robust in its effects on foraging behavior. In this study, pln2 was again shown to affect individual foraging behavior of workers derived from a hybrid backcross of the selected strains. In addition, pln2 was shown to affect the amount of pollen stored in combs of colonies derived from a wide cross of European and Africanized honeybees. This is noteworthy because it demonstrates that we can map QTLs for behavior in interstrain crosses derived from selective breeding and study their effects in unselected, natural populations. The results we present also demonstrate the repeatability of finding QTLs with measurable effects, even after outcrossing selected strains, suggesting that there is a relatively small subset of QTLs with major effects segregating in the population from which we selected our founding breeding populations. The different QTLs, pln1, pln2, and pln3, appear to have different effects, revealing the complex genetic architecture of honeybee foraging behavior.The second is probably more related to what Zealot is interested in..cheers,
M

quote:

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1) Darwin was not a Christian. He renounced both Christianity and the Bible.
2) Evolution was long regarded as the naturalistic origin of life from non-life, but has since been re-defined (IMO for obvious reasons). See my article on this:

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1) a false assertion but if telling a lie makes you feel good..whatever floats your boat
2) Why read your article? One can read the Darwin's work and see that you don't know what you are talking about on this subject.

quote:

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This is called a mantra. The only thing true about evolution is genetic variation on a small-scale, but this variation is limited. There is no tangible evidence for molecules-to-man evolution.

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And what you have written is called an unsupported assertion. Variation of enormous scale has been observed i.e. cichlids and it does not necessarily require huge variation to get radically different morphological evolutionNature 424, 1061 - 1065 (28 August 2003); doi:10.1038/nature01872Cephalopod Hox genes and the origin of morphological noveltiesPATRICIA N. LEE1,2, PATRICK CALLAERTS3, HEINZ G. DE COUET1 & MARK Q. MARTINDALE21 Department of Zoology, University of Hawaii at Manoa, 2538 McCarthy Mall, Honolulu, Hawaii 96822, USA
2 Kewalo Marine Laboratory/Pacific Biomedical Research Center, University of Hawaii, 41 Ahui Street, Honolulu, Hawaii 96813, USA
3 Department of Biology & Biochemistry, University of Houston, 369 Science and Research Bldg 2, Houston, Texas 77204, USACorrespondence and requests for materials should be addressed to H.G.d.C. (couet@hawaii.edu).Cephalopods are a diverse group of highly derived molluscs, including nautiluses, squids, octopuses and cuttlefish. Evolution of the cephalopod body plan from a monoplacophoran-like ancestor entailed the origin of several key morphological innovations contributing to their impressive evolutionary success. Recruitment of regulatory genes, or even pre-existing regulatory networks, may be a common genetic mechanism for generating new structures. Hox genes encode a family of transcriptional regulatory proteins with a highly conserved role in axial patterning in bilaterians; however, examples highlighting the importance of Hox gene recruitment for new developmental functions are also known. Here we examined developmental expression patterns for eight out of nine Hox genes in the Hawaiian bobtail squid Euprymna scolopes, by whole-mount in situ hybridization. Our data show that Hox orthologues have been recruited multiple times and in many ways in the origin of new cephalopod structures. The manner in which these genes have been co-opted during cephalopod evolution provides insight to the nature of the molecular mechanisms driving morphological change in the Lophotrochozoa, a clade exhibiting the greatest diversity of body plans in the Metazoa.I also see Fred is confusing abiogenesis with evolution..but actually you are the result of molecules to man Fred...you were once ultimately strands of DNA molecules wrapped around histones in your parents gonads and you developed into a guy who knows very little about evolution ..of course I did not observe this so according to your logic it did not happen and you therefore do not exist.

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His next line of evidence was the MtDNA clock, failing to realize that new data in 1998 forced evos to backtrack since the age for MtDNA Eve suddenly shrunk from 300K to 6K years old (I mentioned this to him aftward; I can’t recall Hovind’s response to this evidence).

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Ah yes, the Parson work that was shown to be wrong about a week later! Get with the program. Don't creationists ever read up on the fields they supposedly are so passionate about?

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Why is it so hard for you guys to present tangible evidence for evolution that you all can agree on?

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Um because that is how science works Fred...nobody agrees on the details i.e. rate of mutation etc....people constantly check each others work and look for holes...that is why science continuously advances and religious nuts stay stuck in the past.

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BTW, this professor also repeated the now tenuous claim that MtDNA is only passed down by the mother.

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Why tenuous? Because certain species of mussel have bi-parental mtDNA inheritance?...that has been known about for 10 years?How about next time you post you give some references that can be discussed as opposed to "Kent Hovind and some professor said"?cheers and welcome back M

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If the theory is so robust, with huge amounts of evidence, you would think that evolutionists wouldn’t be crawling all over each other and could universally agree on what is good evidence and what isn’t. Are there differing and conflicting theories of gravity? I submit that evolution is no better than a low-grade hyopthesis

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On further thought what Fred describes here as what he thinks would be robust science is actually the hallmark of fringe science or quackery. If you have universal agreement or enforced agreement i.e. the intelligent design movement or "creation science" w...hat Fred expresses is what you would see. Only agreement tolerated and when their views or so called evidence do not pan out, it is surpressed or more often not addressed. From the theory of gravity to the principles of genetics there are ALWAYS scientists trying to poke holes, criticize, find something novel...that is the only way for science to progress. The theories are those that have survived this type of scrutiny such as mendelian inheritance and the theory of evolution for example. The discovery of non-mendelian inheritance such as genomic imprinting did not destroy modern genetics. Horizontal transfer did not destroy the thoery of evolution...but it required both rethinking in both fields, explanations, and experimental evidence to incorporate them...to destroy the theories these phenomenon would have had to have been unexplainable by the theories and the evidence for them in complete contradicition to the possibility of say Mendelian modes of inheritance.Contrast this with Intelligent Design. They have no testable hypothesis that is falsifiable. Their evidence is hypberbole. Several of the prominent members have overt religious agendas...and the kind of evidence they present is "the evidence for design is self evident" and other such logical fallacies. They also have to tow the ID line i.e. no dissent allowed.A step down the ladder..or completely off the ladder into fringe-quack-pseudo science is creation science. The main organizations such as AIG expressly state that any evidence that contradicts the bible will not be tolerated! So a priori they dismiss any and all observations ,experiments, or sciences that conflict with a conservative Christian world view. They, like the IDists, have no testable or falsifiable hypothesis. They make no attempts at gathering evidence and are required to misrepresent the theory of evolution i.e. Fred's insistence that abiogenesis and evolution are the same. Creation science is pure fraud. It is not science. It does not operate under a single scientific principle.Note that in all the debates on this site (and many others)creationists make claims about how the theory of evolution is not true because this or that...but when is the last time or when was there ever a time where a creationist has shown up with an attempt to devise a testable hypothesis of creation? Explain how it is falsifiable, provide evidence? ...by my last count..the last time was never.And given the topic of this forum is Education and Creation/Evolution
this is why niether should be taught in a science classroom except to illustrate how science should never be done.

Hi Percy,No problem...a few suggestions

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Evolution's original definition was "the naturalistic origin of life from non-life" (Fred).

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There are multiple threads on abiogenesis in the Origins of Life forum

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Evolution can only cause small scale changes (Fred).

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This could warrant its own thread in the Evolution forum

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...the age for MtDNA Eve suddenly shrunk from 300K to 6K years old. (Fred).

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I am already engaged in a discussion on this subject in general in the Human Origins forum in the Genetic Bottlenecks and the Flood thread with Alec...this discussion could be moved here...or Fred could pick it up in that thread. [Changed thread title to a URL. --Admin]

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... the now tenuous claim that MtDNA is only passed down by the mother (Fred).

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This could go in the same thread on bottlenecks without really being off topic.

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There are different and conflicting theories of evolution (Fred).

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Perhaps a new Evolution thread?cheers,
M [Thanks for the suggestions. --Admin][This message has been edited by Admin, 08-29-2003]

Hi Percy,Maybe you could move the "Genetic Bottlenecks and the flood" thread into the evolution forum? I get the impression other interested parties are missing it since it is in a different forum...as Fred pointed out, the topics under discussion don't really fit in this forum so most should probably go into Evolution.I can open an "SLPx versus Fred Williams insult-a-thon" thread in the Free for All if you and Fred wish