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Member (Idle past 3933 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jazzns writes: This is great stuff! Now go one step up from this, a little more abstract. How do we know to interpret a particular prophecy as "ultimate" versus perhaps a more straight forward reading of X was prophesised and X happened (end of story,....... In order to determine what God's ultimate purpose for a given prophecy, one must have a working knowledge of God's plan for the ages. The most significant clue as to the ultimate purpose of Daniel's prophecies, for example, is the little statement in the last chapter, 12:4 where Daniel is instructed to shut up the words of his prophecy and seal the book until the end time. As time goes from generation to generation, century to century, history passes and new insight on the end time prophecies is available. Daniel's prophecies itemized the world class kingdoms which would rise and fall before the end time when a messianic power would become the final one. Corroborating the prophets, it becomes clear that the sign for the ultimate fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies would be a restoration of the nation of Israel, as one nation, i.e not two divided kingdoms such as was the contemporary situation. (See Ezekiel, chapters 36-39 for the most complete sequential prophecy of the restoration and end time events which would come to pass for the ultimate fulfillment prophecies relative to the nation of Israel.) This is indicative that the ultimate end time fulfillment of Daniel, of the Genesis Abrahamic covenant/prophecy in Genesis and of Ezekiel and others relative to the Israeli messianic kingdom are becoming realized. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Jazzns writes:
because all prophecies revolve around the outworking of Gods purposes and there are many prophecies about each of those purposes, not just one. What reason do you have to expand beyond the initial fulfillment? That is really what I am asking about. If God promises or a prophet divines that X will happen in the future, and X does happen, why is it not just simply fulfilled and done with?His original purpose for the earth for instance was for it to be a paradise. But the earth is not a paradise is it. So any prophecies regarding the paradise are yet to be fully realised. Jesus himself spoke about the earth and in Matt 5:5 he said "The meek shall inherit the earth" This is an expansion on Isreals inheritance of the promised land. He also told the man on the stake next to him "trully I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise" The promised land was said to be a paradise for isreal. At Deut 8:7-9 Moses called it "a good land, a land of torrent valleys of water...a land in which you will not eat bread with scarcity, in which you will lack nothing..." The land of Isreal was like this description, especially during the reigns of good kings such as David and Solomon. But obviously in Jesus day, 2000 years ago, that earthly paradise was not a reality, though Jesus knew that it would be a reality in the future which is why he could confidently tell the man that he would be in paradise. The prophecies about the promised land and Isreal, were merely a foreshadow of the greater fulfillment for if you read prophecies such as Psalm 37:29 it says The righteous themselves will possess the EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it. Psalms show that the whole 'earth' is involved in Gods pupose, not just the borders of Isreal. And then you have to take into consideration that Gods purpose was not only for one nation, it was for all nations as the following prophecies show: Genesis 22:18 All the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by your descendants, because you have obeyed My command. the overall result of genesis 22:18 is seen in Rev 21.3 Revelation 21:3"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away. So i guess im attempting to show you that many of these prophecies are related to one another which is why they will often have greater fulfillments. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Jazzns writes: I am not personally aware of all the variety of interpretations of Daniel 11-12 but at the very least 11 is describing in quite exquisite detail the comings and goings of the wars between the Selucids and Ptolomys during the 2nd centry BC. In fact, the King of the North who makes a covenant for 7 years but breaks it halfway though only to descreate the temple exactly describes Antiochus Epiphanes and independent accounts of what he was doing to Helenize the Jews at the time. Ok, well Im sure there are many interpretations, i'll give you one of them. firstly, Matt 24:15 Jesus quotes from Daniels prophecy to explain to his apostles that a war was coming. "When you catch sight of the disgusting thing... as spoken through Daniel the prophet, know that the desolating of her (jerusalem) has drawn near" this just shows that parts of Daniels prophecy was soon to be fulfilled in the first century. Jesus obviously knew the prophecy of Daniel and could quote from it. The prophecy of Daniel involves one king who rules supreme while the other becomes inactive and it becomes a continual conflict between these two rival kings who are termed 'the king of the North' and the 'king of the south' The identities of them change though, they are not always the same kings. Evidence for this is that Daniel is told to roll up the scroll until the 'time of the end' This is a reference to the last days which means the kings cannot have been the same kings throught all these thousands of years. But you are right in that it began with Syrian King Seleucus I Nicator & Egyptian KingPtolemy Lagus. the following verses show how they developed into the king of the North and king of the South
quote: this is Cyrus the Great, CambysesII, and DariusI and his son and successor XerxesI.
quote: this is Alexander the Great in 336BCE
quote: This is the sudden death of Alexander at age 33, his family members briefly had the power but they were all killed off. His brother PhilipIII Arrhidaeus was murdered in 317BCE. His son AlexanderIV ruled until 311BCE but was killed by Cassander, one of the generals. His illegitimate son Heracles was murdered in 309BCE so now his 'posterity' ended and his kingdom was divided toward the four winds.By 301BCE 4 generals were in power over the territory that Alexander had conquered. Cassander ruled Macedonia and Greece. Lysimachus got Asia Minor and Thrace. Seleucus I Nicator ruled in Mesopotamia and Syria. And Ptolemy Lagus took Egypt and Palestine. From these four kingdoms only two eventually became the strongest and most dominant. kingsSeleucus I Nicator over Syria and Ptolemy I over Egypt. With these two kings began the long struggle between the king of the north and the king of the south, Daniels prophecy leaves the kings unnamed because over the ages their identity and nationality would change. Also its important to know that Daniels prophecy was a warning to Gods people, so these kings would be the ones who had a direct bearing on Gods people. Judah was under the dominion of the king of the south Ptolemy I and remaind under his until 198BCE At the beginning of the conflict between the 2 kings,
quote: The successor of Antiochus I, was AntiochusII. He fought a long war against PtolemyII, the son of Ptolemy I. AntiochusII and PtolemyII respectively constituted the king of the north and the king of the south. In 250B.C.E., these two kings entered into an equitable arrangement. they made a marriage alliance whereby Ptolomy II married Berenice, the very daughter of the king of the south. Berenice’s arm, or supporting power, was her father, PtolemyII. but when he died in 246BCE, she did not retain the power of her arm with her husband. AntiochusII rejected her, remarried Laodice, and named their son to be his successor. As Laodice planned, Berenice and her son were murdered along with her attendants. Then Laodice poisoned AntiochusII, and thus his arm, or power, also did not stand. This left SeleucusII, the son of Laodice, as Syrian king. remember this is a constant struggle so how did the king of the North continue the struggle?
quote: the sprout of Berenice’s parents, or roots, was her brother. At his father’s death, he ‘stood up’ as the king of the south, the Egyptian Pharaoh PtolemyIII. At once he set out to avenge his sister’s murder. Marching against Syrian King SeleucusII, who Laodice had used to murder Berenice and her son, he came against the fortress of the king of the north. PtolemyIII took the fortified part of Antioch and dealt a deathblow to Laodice. Moving eastward through the domain of the king of the north, he plundered Babylonia and marched on to India.
quote: 200 years earlier the Persian King CambysesII had conquered Egypt and carried home Egyptian gods, their molten images. PtolemyIII recovered these gods and took them back to Egypt, he had accomplished what he set out to do and so now took a break from waring with the king of the north. But now the king of the north continues the struggle.
quote: Syrian King SeleucusII struck back and entered the kingdom, of the Egyptian king of the south but was defeated, he returned home with a remnant of his army and ‘went back to his own soil,’ in about 242BCE After he died he was succeeded by his son SeleucusIII
quote: The 2nd son of SeleucusII assembled great forces for an assault on the king of the south, who was by then PtolemyIV. He successfully fought against Egypt and won back the seaport of Seleucia, the province of Coele-Syria, the cities of Tyre and Ptolemas, and nearby towns. He took many cities of Judah and in 217BCE, AntiochusIII left Ptolemais and went north, all the way to his fortress in Syria.
quote: With 75,000 troops, the king of the south, PtolemyIV, moved northward against the enemy. The Syrian king of the north, AntiochusIII, had raised a large crowd of 68,000 to stand up against him. But the crowd was given into the hand of the king of the south in battle at the coastal city of Raphia, not far from Egypt’s border. Im going to let you digest this before i go on because there is a long way to go before we get to the kings who exist in the 'time of the end' but as you can see, the kings of the north and south were changing even back then depending on who was ruling at the time. Its the same in our day, there are dominant world powers and those who have struggles with each other.
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3933 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
Thank you for the recap. No need to pause for digestion as I already know this. The interesting bits are at the end anyway. =)
Please continue. Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given. If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
ok then on we go....
quote:PtolemyIV carried away 10,000 Syrian infantry and 300 cavalry into death and took 4,000 as prisoners. They then make a treaty dedicing that AntiochusIII keep the Syrian seaport this was a victory for him so he was 'exalted' Ptolemy IV kept control of Judah he did not use his strong position for long for he died soon after and his five-year-old son, PtolemyV, became the next king of the south. quote:When young PtolemyV became king of the south, AntiochusIII set out with a crowd larger than the first to recover the territories he had lost to the Egyptian king of the south. To that end, he joined forces with Macedonian King PhilipV. quote:Military forces under PtolemyV, or arms of the south, succumbed to assault from the north. At Paneas (Caesarea Philippi), AntiochusIII drove Egypt’s GeneralScopas and 10,000 select men, or picked ones, into Sidon, a city with fortifications. There AntiochusIII ‘threw up a siege rampart,’ taking that Phoenician seaport in 198BCE. He acted according to his will because he proved stronger then the Egyption forces. he then marched against Jerusalem, the capital of the land of the Decoration, and in 198BCE, Jerusalem and Judah passed from domination by the Egyptian king of the south to that of the Syrian king of the north. And AntiochusIII, the king of the north, began to stand in the land of the Decoration. quote: The king of the north, AntiochusIII, set his face to dominate Egypt using his entire kingdom. But he ended up making equitable terms of peace with PtolemyV via a marriage alliance. But then the guardians of PtolemyV turned to Rome for protection and Rome flexed its muscles forcing AntiochusIII to make peace with the king of the south and return the conqured territories. He chose to give his daughter Cleopatra I the daughter of womankind in marriage to PtolemyV. and he used the provinces including Judah the land of the Decoration, as her dowry...however Cleopatra did not continue to be his, when she sided with her husband. When war broke out between AntiochusIII and the Romans, Egypt took the side of Rome.
quote: A war broke out in Greece in 192BCE, and AntiochusIII was induced to come to Greece "the coastlands'. then Rome formally declared war on him. He suffered a defeat at Roman hands. About a year after losing the battle of Magnesia in 190BCE, he had to give up everything in Greece, Asia Minor, and in areas west of the Taurus Mountains. Rome exacted a heavy fine and established its domination over the Syrian king of the north. Driven from Greece and Asia Minor and having lost nearly all his fleet, AntiochusIII ‘turned his face back to the fortresses of his own land,’ Syria.After he "fell" by death in 187BCE he was succeeded by his son SeleucusIV, the next king of the north. this ends the pre messianic times...here after we have a new set of circumstances because the Messiah had appeared, so that was pre messiah, and from Danel Vs 20 onward is post Messiah. in Vs 20 It was the king of the norths sending out of the exactor through the Roman Empire that guided matters for Jesus, in fulfillment of prophecy, to be born in Bethlehem, this was when Augustus ruled
quote: on August 19, 14CE, a short time after having ordered this registration, Augustus died, neither ‘in anger nor in warfare.’ The despised person who succeeded Augustus was Tiberius. It was during Tiberius’ rule that the prophetic Leader of the covenant, Jesus Christ, was broken in death.
quote: When Tiberius became the king of the north, his nephew Germanicus Caesar was commander of the Roman troops on the Rhine River. In 15CE, he led his forces against the German hero Arminius, with some success. However, the limited victories were won at great cost, and Tiberius thereafter aborted operations in Germany. Instead, by promoting civil war, he tried to prevent German tribes from uniting. Tiberius generally favored a defensive foreign policy and focused on strengthening the frontiers. This stance was fairly successful. In this way the arms of the flood were controlled and were broken. Im going to shoot forward now to 'the time of the end' Many beleive this 'time' began in 1914. Yes you know that year, it was the outbreak of the first world war and this was a turning point in the history of mankind and the struggle between the two kings kicks off in brutal fashion with a world war on a scale never before experienced.
quote: Now your going to want me to post info about these modern day kings, yet i cant right now becasue i have to go out for a while...when i get back i will complete it. Edited by Peg, : No reason given. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I think that your interpretation has some big problems.
Firstly you jump from the Hellenistic period to the Roman between verse 19 and 20. What is the justification for that ? The ruler of verse 20 appears to be the immediate successor to the ruler of verse 19. The latest date for the registration accompanying Jesus' birth is 6 AD - most conservative Christians try to introduce an (unrecorded) registration even earlier. Even the later date gives ~8 years to Augustus' death which is not a "comparatively short time". The more obvious candidate Seleucus IV Philopater tried to gather money from the Jewish Temple in 173 BC, and died in September of that year - to be succeeded by the despised Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: Firstly you jump from the Hellenistic period to the Roman between verse 19 and 20. What is the justification for that ? The ruler of verse 20 appears to be the immediate successor to the ruler of verse 19. why does it need to be justified...they have to cross over at some point considering the romans gained control from the helenistsic rulers or have i misunderstood your question?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It needs justifying because you are inserting a (large) gap into the narrative. It should be marked. Instead the text taken at face value seems to simply carry on with the next of the Seleucid rulers (who fits the prophecy better than Augustus). And no, the prophecy does NOT have to cross over to Roman rule. (In fact Daniel 8 indicates that it should not - see 8:17 and 8:20-26).
quote: I don't know. But your answer seems to say to me that since your interpretation demands a mangling of the text, mangling the text is the way to go.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: It needs justifying because you are inserting a (large) gap into the narrative what sort of gap are you refering to? gaps in time between events?? AntiochusIII died in 187BCE and was succeeded by his son SeleucusIVand later Heliodorus murdered SeleucusIV. AntiochusIV, his brother, then succeeded him to the throne. if there is a gap in the time it is not a problem for the prophecy for the prophecy does not give any details as to the timing of the events.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That's a big part of it. But it is also a break in the narrative. The translated text at least looks like a continuous narrative. You have it suddenly jumping to a different time and different people with no obvious connection. What is there in the text that justifies such an interpretation ?
quote: And the relevance of this is ?
quote: The problem is in your interpretation of the prophecy. I repeat the question. What is there in the prophecy that justifies your insertion of a gap between verses 19 and 20 ?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: That's a big part of it. But it is also a break in the narrative. The translated text at least looks like a continuous narrative. You have it suddenly jumping to a different time and different people with no obvious connection. What is there in the text that justifies such an interpretation ? ah right, i very well may have done that... here is the verses in full from vs 18-21
quote: Vs 19 ends with Antiochus III falling and not being found...AntiochusIII in 187BCE He ‘fell’ in death and was succeeded by his son SeleucusIV, thus was no longer found.Seleucas IV became the new syrian king of the North, while the King of the south remained a egyption ptolomic king. In verse 20 the identity has once again changed, this time though, its moved to the ruling Roman nation as they became the dominant force among world powers.The one ‘standing up’ in verse 20 proved to be the first Roman emperor, Octavian, who was known as Caesar Augustus The splendid kingdom of Augustus included the land of the Decoration or Judea. It was in 2BCE (and i know this is a debated point) Augustus sent out an exactor by ordering a registration, or census who was Quirinius. In August 14CE not long after decreeing the registration, Augustus died at the age of 76 as a result of illness. Vs 21 now mentions the one who is to be despised This proves to be Tiberius Caesar. Augustus hated this stepson because of his bad traits and did not want him to become the next Caesar. The dignity of the kingdom was unwillingly bestowed upon him only after all other likely successors were dead. Augustus adopted Tiberius in 4CE and made him heir to the throne. After the death of Augustus, 54 year old Tiberius ‘stood up,’ and assumed power as the Roman emperor and became the new king of the north.
PaulK writes: What is there in the prophecy that justifies your insertion of a gap between verses 19 and 20 ? because 19 says "...and he will certainly stumble and fall, and he will not be found" and 20 says "And there must stand up in his position..." this shows that the king in Vs 19 was going to die and a new king in vs 20 would stand in the place of him. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: You still haven't answered the question. Why interpret it as Augustus rather than Seleucus IV ? Why Quirinius rather than Heliodorus ? Why Tiberius rather than Antiochus ? What is there in the test that suggests the change ? Also compare your translation with the NASB
19"So he will turn his face toward the fortresses of his own land, but he will stumble and fall and be found no more. 20"Then in his place one will arise who will send an oppressor through the Jewel of his kingdom; yet within a few days he will be shattered, though not in anger nor in battle.
quote: Which points to Seleucus IV, not Augustus. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
It couldnt have been Seleucas VI for the reason that he was murdered before he had any impact on Judah.
His brother AntiochusIV on the other hand had a huge bearing on Judah. He dedicated Jerusalem’s temple to Zeus, or Jupiter. In December 167BCE, he erected a pagan altar in the temple courtyard this is what led to the Jewish uprising under the Maccabees and a battle that lasted 3 years.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: You mean Seleucus IV - and he sent Heliodorus to extract money from the Temple - which seems sufficient impact for someone who only rates a single verse. So Seleucus IV did stand up in place of Antiochus III (he was his successor), did send a man to extract money from Judah and did die shortly afterwards (and not in battle). Three out of three. Augustus only did one of these things. Seleucus IV fits the prophecy much better than Augustus - but you say that it can't refer to him and must refert to Augusuts. Why ?
quote: Which is another big problem with your interpretation, but we can deal with that later.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
there is another reason why it couldnt be the northern king Seleucas IV. Sure he may have had an intent to steal treasures from jerusalems temple, but it was his brother who profaned the temple by dedicating it to a foreign god.
the position of king of the south was held by the Egyption Ptolemaic dynasty for over 130 years, but During the battle of Actium, in 31BCE, the roman ruler Octavian defeated the forces of the last Ptolemaic queen, CleopatraVII, and Mark Antony. After Cleopatracommitted suicide Egypt became a Roman province. The king of the south was now in Roman hands. By the year 30BCE, Rome had supremacy over both Syria and Egypt and therefore they dominated over the king of the north. So not only was seleucas dead by this time, but the dominant king was Rome...the new king of the south.
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