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Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Christian Laws | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Authority to what? quote:End of a law means it is no longer followed at all. So Christians should not be pulling anything out of the Jewish laws as a behavioral requirement. (Still not talking about justification or salvation.) As you and others have shown, right behavior is required and wrong behavior or lack of specific right behaviors may prevent one from the final inheritance. If following one's current legal system is not enough, then right and wrong need to be clearly stated so all can be held accountable to the same criteria.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Then tell that to Peg, not me. I'm not claiming anyone can lose their spot. quote:I didn't say you did. quote:Exactly! quote:This thread is based on something Peg and I discussed in another thread. See Message 6. I made it clear in Message 316 that my issue is with Christians who make comments like Peg and Richh, which I quoted in Message 316. My contention is that there are no Christian Laws. Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Message 114 If you believe there are Christian laws, then list them; if not, then why are you babbling at me?
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Agreed. quote:I didn't specify any specific Mosaic Law. Not stealing is part of current local laws in the US. One doesn't have to reach back to Moses for that one. quote:As I said in Message 114: We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. quote:Then tell that to Peg and Richh, not me. quote:I know. I was actually trying to engage Richh in discussion since he is relatively new.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Justification. You know, faith not works etc., etc. quote:It doesn't matter whether he cared about the practice or not. The point is he didn't change any laws for the Jews and had no authority to change any laws for the Jews or the Greeks. The Greeks weren't under Mosaic law anyway. quote:I agree, the author of Luke wrote Acts. quote:Actually I just don't necessarily take your version of what the NT says or other dogma that rears its head. quote:I don't know who that is. quote:The author of Luke is also unknown. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:This thread isn't about justification and salvation. It is about Christian Laws and God's Laws. Still waiting for a list with support that they carry a penalty from God on judgment day or at any time. The text says worthy of death, not that there is actually a death penalty for the action from God. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Whenever one is held accountable by God, what standards is one held accountable to? Don't say God's laws without listing them and providing support that they are from God and not just later suggestions on how to behave.
"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
This thread is based on something Peg and I discussed in another thread. See Message 6. I made it clear in Message 316 that my issue is with Christians who make comments like Peg and Richh, which I quoted in Message 316.
My contention is that there are no Christian Laws. Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves. We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families. There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Message 114
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I responded in Message 224. quote:Those aren't "things" that can be consistently characterized. You can't even tell someone if they are abiding, or have an indwelling, etc. No one can tell if they are doing it right. How do these "things" manifest themselves in reality? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Yes I still disagree. Show me that polygamy changed due to a Christian law and wasn't part of the cultures of the time. Polygamy 1. Polygamy was NOT practiced in Greek and Roman societies of the time: 2. Polygamy was practiced somewhat in 1st century Palestinian Judaism (by the government/aristocratic leaders): 3. Among the Jews, it was not accepted by the prestigious school of Hillel (above), nor by the strict Dead Sea Sect (Qumran), and was not widely practiced, esp. among the rabbi's: "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I've been talking about reality, I'm not sure what you've been talking about. As I showed in Message 6, the Mosaic Laws during the NT were only about 3.5% of the Jewish law. The Oral Torah was the larger portion that grew with the people after they returned from exile.
By committing the "Oral Law" to writing, the Rabbis sought to perpetuate traditions which had grown up over time with the consent of the community of Israel". Just as our laws in the United States change with the culture, so did the Jewish Law. The Mosaic Laws were written to govern a specific culture at a specific time. By referring back to the written laws you are stuck in the past. Do you have support that the actual practices of the first century Jews included polygamy across the board? Do you have support that the Greeks and Romans practiced polygamy in the first century?
Monogamy and polygyny in Greece, Rome, and world history St. Augustine Saint Augustine saw a conflict with Old Testament polygamy. He writes in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15) that, although it "was lawful among the ancient fathers: whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful." He refrained from judging the patriarchs, but did not deduce from their practice the ongoing acceptability of polygamy. In chapter 7, he wrote, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living." Please show support, don't just say it.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Oddly enough, I probably accept what the Bible actual says more than you do. Yes, it is wise to actually study the subject. You choose to study the subject through contrived interpretations and apologetics. I choose to study the subject through reality. Writings can only give us a snapshot of a specific time. We can't always tell from the writing why a writer wrote what he wrote. Just like we can't always tell from a snapshot why the person was doing what they were doing. When we read a writing, we read it from our own reality, not that of the author. The author writes for his audience and his reality, not ours. So to study the "subject" we have to try understand to the best of our ability the reality of the author and/or his audience. Claiming that Christianity brought forth monogamy seems to be incorrect from the information I could find. Monogamy was already a part of the Graeco/Roman culture that Christianity became a part of.
quote:St. Augustine and a Christian Think Tank are criticism? I try to find support from Christian or neutral sources as much as possible. Don't blame me because you're trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't.
quote:You have not shown support that monogamy was introduced by Christians. I've shown historical support that it wasn't. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Yes they did. Message 104. I also showed you a Christian article that said various sects did not promote polygamy. Just because the Jewish law allowed the option, doesn't mean it was being utilized by all Jews or forced on Jews. Christians promoting monogamy doesn't show that the Jews following the Way didn't follow Jewish Law. The Way was still a sect of Judaism and therefore the members were still under Jewish Law. Only after Judaism cast out Christians were they no longer under Jewish Law. Paul was speaking of church leaders, not the general congregation. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:According to you, not the text. The text refers to leaders. 1 Timothy 3:2 NIV Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 1 Timothy 3:12 NIVA deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. Titus 1:6 NIVAn elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. quote:Greeks were never covered by the Jewish Law. Once Christianity was no longer a sect of Judaism, the members were no longer under Jewish Law. From the book "a History of Christiinaity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953. To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
The reason you didn't get an answer is because you didn't use the reply button. No one knows who you were asking the question.
quote:Only the simple reading is necessary to understand God's message, the writing accounts for language change and can be understood by all generations and peoples, nothing gets lost in translation or left to interpretation, no hidden meanings, and the information is consistent. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Holy doesn't mean good or nice. What makes the behaviors listed in the NT, laws! A law is legally binding. Where does God say these behaviors actually receive a death penalty?
quote:Yes that is a summary, now give the detail. A summary isn't a law. We can't be held accountable to a summary. People can do bad things in the name of God. What are the actual laws that are being summarized? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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