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Author Topic:   Christian Laws
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 318 of 392 (521014)
08-25-2009 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by jaywill
08-25-2009 8:05 AM


Re: Paul's Authority
quote:
As expected, total evasion of the issue of whether you regard Christ as having authority either, let alone His apostles, including Paul.
Authority to what?
quote:
Some may regard that as changing. Some may not. The point I make is that Christ is Paul's total focus, for Christ is the end of the law.
End of a law means it is no longer followed at all. So Christians should not be pulling anything out of the Jewish laws as a behavioral requirement. (Still not talking about justification or salvation.)
As you and others have shown, right behavior is required and wrong behavior or lack of specific right behaviors may prevent one from the final inheritance.
If following one's current legal system is not enough, then right and wrong need to be clearly stated so all can be held accountable to the same criteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by jaywill, posted 08-25-2009 8:05 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by jaywill, posted 08-26-2009 12:01 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 322 of 392 (521203)
08-26-2009 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by jaywill
08-26-2009 11:39 AM


Re: Whats your list?
quote:
"Lose their spot" .... the phrase is kind of vague. If you mean lose eternal redemption, no, the saved cannot "lose their spot" in that regard.
Then tell that to Peg, not me. I'm not claiming anyone can lose their spot.
quote:
I haven't said the redeemed can "lose justification from wrong behavior".
I didn't say you did.
quote:
"But we are not talking about Justification".
Exactly!
quote:
Somehow this is suppose to be related to "Christian Laws".
This thread is based on something Peg and I discussed in another thread. See Message 6. I made it clear in Message 316 that my issue is with Christians who make comments like Peg and Richh, which I quoted in Message 316.
My contention is that there are no Christian Laws.
Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.
We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.
There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Message 114
If you believe there are Christian laws, then list them; if not, then why are you babbling at me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by jaywill, posted 08-26-2009 11:39 AM jaywill has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 324 of 392 (521206)
08-26-2009 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by jaywill
08-26-2009 12:01 PM


Re: Paul's Authority
quote:
Christians, if they intend to preach the gospel, should not be instructing people to follow the law of Moses to be reconciled to God.
Agreed.
quote:
If I as a Christian instruct my neighber's kid not to steal my kid's bicycle that is not Gospel preaching per se. And it is stupid for you to react to that, scolding me "Christians should not be pulling 'thou shalt not steal' out of the law of Moses' as a behavior requirement."
I didn't specify any specific Mosaic Law. Not stealing is part of current local laws in the US. One doesn't have to reach back to Moses for that one.
quote:
The same applies the other way around. I made my kid go back to the store and return some candy that he stole. He should not steal. Yes, the law of Moses says it. And other documents say it.
You can't say "But as a Christian you should not take from the law of Moses and tell your kid not to steal." Sure I can. Law is a schoolmaster leading us to grace anyway.
As I said in Message 114: We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.
quote:
The issue for the disciple is not right and wrong but spiritual life or spiritual death.
Then tell that to Peg and Richh, not me.
quote:
I am saying nothing new that I have no elaborated on before.
I know. I was actually trying to engage Richh in discussion since he is relatively new.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jaywill, posted 08-26-2009 12:01 PM jaywill has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 325 of 392 (521210)
08-26-2009 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by jaywill
08-26-2009 12:12 PM


Re: Paul's Authority
quote:
I don't follow you at all.
Justification. You know, faith not works etc., etc.
quote:
He saw it did not pay to have one foot in the law of Moses like James. Can you point out ANYTHING in Galatians, written after this event, that Paul cared anything about the practice ?
It doesn't matter whether he cared about the practice or not. The point is he didn't change any laws for the Jews and had no authority to change any laws for the Jews or the Greeks. The Greeks weren't under Mosaic law anyway.
quote:
And Luke wrote Acts.
I agree, the author of Luke wrote Acts.
quote:
That's part of your problem. You just don't take what the New Testament says. It says something. But you just don't accept it. Or you take it selectively submitting it to some volume unknown to me, that you are measuring everything by.
Actually I just don't necessarily take your version of what the NT says or other dogma that rears its head.
quote:
Is Prof. Eardman your main enfluence ??
I don't know who that is.
quote:
I think that that is part of your problem. You don't believe what it says. Okay, the strong evidence is that Luke wrote it - Acts 1:1,2), and other indications of the accompanying of Paul in his journeys.
The author of Luke is also unknown.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by jaywill, posted 08-26-2009 12:12 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by jaywill, posted 09-02-2009 7:16 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 334 of 392 (526030)
09-25-2009 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Richh
09-23-2009 11:07 PM


Re: And still you list nothing
quote:
I will say something about the need for justification and salvation in a later post.
This thread isn't about justification and salvation. It is about Christian Laws and God's Laws. Still waiting for a list with support that they carry a penalty from God on judgment day or at any time.
The text says worthy of death, not that there is actually a death penalty for the action from God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Richh, posted 09-23-2009 11:07 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Richh, posted 09-25-2009 5:39 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 338 by jaywill, posted 09-26-2009 1:36 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 336 of 392 (526068)
09-25-2009 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Richh
09-25-2009 5:39 PM


Standards of God
Whenever one is held accountable by God, what standards is one held accountable to? Don't say God's laws without listing them and providing support that they are from God and not just later suggestions on how to behave.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Richh, posted 09-25-2009 5:39 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Richh, posted 10-06-2009 11:26 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 339 of 392 (526285)
09-26-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by jaywill
09-26-2009 1:36 PM


Christian Laws
This thread is based on something Peg and I discussed in another thread. See Message 6. I made it clear in Message 316 that my issue is with Christians who make comments like Peg and Richh, which I quoted in Message 316.
My contention is that there are no Christian Laws.
Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.
We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.
There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Message 114

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by jaywill, posted 09-26-2009 1:36 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by jaywill, posted 09-29-2009 3:28 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 344 by Peg, posted 10-03-2009 9:09 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 341 of 392 (526930)
09-29-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by jaywill
09-29-2009 3:28 PM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
And I gave you quite a few principles and asked for their parellels in the Old Testament. You were not able to show me.
I responded in Message 224.
quote:
That is unless you can point out the indwelling, the abiding in God as a living Person with whom man may mutually blend.
Those aren't "things" that can be consistently characterized. You can't even tell someone if they are abiding, or have an indwelling, etc. No one can tell if they are doing it right. How do these "things" manifest themselves in reality?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by jaywill, posted 09-29-2009 3:28 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by jaywill, posted 09-30-2009 2:06 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 347 by jaywill, posted 10-04-2009 7:54 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 345 of 392 (527963)
10-03-2009 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Peg
10-03-2009 9:09 AM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
IOW a man or woman who had sex with anyone but their marriage mate was practicing fornication. In the mosaic law, a man could have many wives and concubines and not be classified under the sin of fornication. This was not so in the christian congregation. Polygomy was not practiced because it became a christian law.
do you still want to deny that the christians have their own set of laws.?
Yes I still disagree. Show me that polygamy changed due to a Christian law and wasn't part of the cultures of the time.
Polygamy
1. Polygamy was NOT practiced in Greek and Roman societies of the time:
2. Polygamy was practiced somewhat in 1st century Palestinian Judaism (by the government/aristocratic leaders):
3. Among the Jews, it was not accepted by the prestigious school of Hillel (above), nor by the strict Dead Sea Sect (Qumran), and was not widely practiced, esp. among the rabbi's:

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Peg, posted 10-03-2009 9:09 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Peg, posted 10-03-2009 9:35 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 348 of 392 (528070)
10-04-2009 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Peg
10-03-2009 9:35 PM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
we are talking about the Mosiac Law, not the people of the time.
In line with your argument, the christians did not merely keep followiing the mosaic laws as you claim
I've been talking about reality, I'm not sure what you've been talking about.
As I showed in Message 6, the Mosaic Laws during the NT were only about 3.5% of the Jewish law. The Oral Torah was the larger portion that grew with the people after they returned from exile.
By committing the "Oral Law" to writing, the Rabbis sought to perpetuate traditions which had grown up over time with the consent of the community of Israel".
Just as our laws in the United States change with the culture, so did the Jewish Law.
The Mosaic Laws were written to govern a specific culture at a specific time. By referring back to the written laws you are stuck in the past.
Do you have support that the actual practices of the first century Jews included polygamy across the board?
Do you have support that the Greeks and Romans practiced polygamy in the first century?
Monogamy and polygyny in Greece, Rome, and world history
St. Augustine
Saint Augustine saw a conflict with Old Testament polygamy. He writes in The Good of Marriage (chapter 15) that, although it "was lawful among the ancient fathers: whether it be lawful now also, I would not hastily pronounce. For there is not now necessity of begetting children, as there then was, when, even when wives bear children, it was allowed, in order to a more numerous posterity, to marry other wives in addition, which now is certainly not lawful." He refrained from judging the patriarchs, but did not deduce from their practice the ongoing acceptability of polygamy. In chapter 7, he wrote, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife, so as to have more than one wife living."
Please show support, don't just say it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Peg, posted 10-03-2009 9:35 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 3:19 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 350 of 392 (528179)
10-05-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Peg
10-05-2009 3:19 AM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
if you want to know what the bible says, you have to accept what it says. However you keep rejecting everything that has come out of the bible in favor of other reference material.
Oddly enough, I probably accept what the Bible actual says more than you do.
Yes, it is wise to actually study the subject. You choose to study the subject through contrived interpretations and apologetics. I choose to study the subject through reality.
Writings can only give us a snapshot of a specific time. We can't always tell from the writing why a writer wrote what he wrote. Just like we can't always tell from a snapshot why the person was doing what they were doing.
When we read a writing, we read it from our own reality, not that of the author. The author writes for his audience and his reality, not ours. So to study the "subject" we have to try understand to the best of our ability the reality of the author and/or his audience.
Claiming that Christianity brought forth monogamy seems to be incorrect from the information I could find. Monogamy was already a part of the Graeco/Roman culture that Christianity became a part of.
quote:
If your preference is to study the opinions of people who are related to the subject only through critisim, then you'll never know the subject.
St. Augustine and a Christian Think Tank are criticism? I try to find support from Christian or neutral sources as much as possible.
Don't blame me because you're trying to make the Bible say something it doesn't.
quote:
i've been showing you plenty of support, you just dont seem to think that the bible is authoritive enough to support its own claims
You have not shown support that monogamy was introduced by Christians.
I've shown historical support that it wasn't.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 3:19 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:09 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 352 of 392 (528282)
10-05-2009 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Peg
10-05-2009 8:09 AM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
i never said it was introduced by the christians...i said they forbade the mosaic law practice of polygomy to show you that they did not continue with judaism as you claimed they did.
Yes they did. Message 104. I also showed you a Christian article that said various sects did not promote polygamy. Just because the Jewish law allowed the option, doesn't mean it was being utilized by all Jews or forced on Jews. Christians promoting monogamy doesn't show that the Jews following the Way didn't follow Jewish Law. The Way was still a sect of Judaism and therefore the members were still under Jewish Law. Only after Judaism cast out Christians were they no longer under Jewish Law.
Paul was speaking of church leaders, not the general congregation.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:09 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 10:07 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 354 of 392 (528445)
10-06-2009 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Peg
10-05-2009 10:07 PM


Re: Christian Laws
quote:
those taking the lead were the ones who had to set the right example...the rest were expected to follow their example. It was one standard for all, becoming a christian meant imitating the example of Christ.
This is why Paul told christians to 'become imitators of me even as I am of the Christ' 1Cor 1:1
According to you, not the text. The text refers to leaders.
1 Timothy 3:2 NIV
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1 Timothy 3:12 NIV
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
Titus 1:6 NIV
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
quote:
This is a clear statement of fact that the Mosaic law was removed and was no longer considered a legally binding requirment on christians.
If you really beleive the christians remained a part of judaism, you certainly have to be able to explain why they wrote such things against it.
Greeks were never covered by the Jewish Law. Once Christianity was no longer a sect of Judaism, the members were no longer under Jewish Law. From the book "a History of Christiinaity" by Kenneth Scott Latourette, 1953.
To their neighbors these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the pharisees joined them. So far as we know, their numbers were recruited entirely from Jews and proselytes to Judaism.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 10:07 PM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 356 of 392 (528860)
10-07-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by Richh
09-25-2009 8:14 PM


The reason you didn't get an answer is because you didn't use the reply button. No one knows who you were asking the question.
quote:
What do you accept as proof of divine origin?
Only the simple reading is necessary to understand God's message, the writing accounts for language change and can be understood by all generations and peoples, nothing gets lost in translation or left to interpretation, no hidden meanings, and the information is consistent.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Richh, posted 09-25-2009 8:14 PM Richh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2009 12:40 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 357 of 392 (528862)
10-07-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Richh
10-06-2009 11:26 PM


Re: Standards of God
quote:
I believe there are no other Christian laws than the Divine laws. These laws are derived from the character or nature of God. He tells His people, "You shall be holy because I am holy." He is saying in effect, "I want you the be like Me." It is the same with His attributes of righteousness, love, etc. He desires to have many sons conformed to the image of His firstborn Son (Rom 8:29). This image is surely an inward likeness, not in mere outward appearance.
Holy doesn't mean good or nice.
What makes the behaviors listed in the NT, laws! A law is legally binding. Where does God say these behaviors actually receive a death penalty?
quote:
What has changed in the New Testament age is the means of fulfilling the 'righteous requirement' of the law, but not the requirement itself. The requirement of the law was summarized by Jesus - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and wit hall your mind and with all your strength. - and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Yes that is a summary, now give the detail. A summary isn't a law. We can't be held accountable to a summary. People can do bad things in the name of God.
What are the actual laws that are being summarized?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Richh, posted 10-06-2009 11:26 PM Richh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by jaywill, posted 10-07-2009 12:28 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 364 by Richh, posted 10-10-2009 12:05 AM purpledawn has replied

  
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