What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?

That's fair enough.

(In so far as it goes. As an aside I'd note that you are in a position to believe God (and follow his commandments or no as a result) without necessarily believing in God.

Which means you can be justly judged against Gods standard. You'd be judged on what you did know, not on what you didn't)

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Another aside. I'd consider it an abuse of church position that people aren't taught something of 'fire and brimstone'. As part of a balanced diet called the gospel of God. Anyone who forgets that element isn't speaking of Gods' gospel.

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Again, fair and reasonable.

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Not yet it appears...

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A relationship with the one who made you and to whom you must give an account strikes me as the most obvious thing you're missing - to put it positively (you get to know God personally) and negatively (you avoid God's wrath expressed against your sin).

Like many things however, you need to be aware of a hole that needs filling in order for the worth of obtaining the filling to be made manifest. If you're not aware of that hole then there's little chance that you'd see the worth in obtaining a filling.

I think what you had was Religion in all honesty - not relationship. In which case you had as much of God in church as you do now outside of it. You've not really moved from your position in fact.

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It's an analogy that shouldn't be stretched too far but might help because you've (presumably) existed on both sides of it. And the analogy involves an orgasm.

Imagine yourself posing the questions you pose here but in a sexual sense - as a 7 year old who has no sexual awakening as such. And see how mute someone like me is rendered in trying to answer your questions. You've no sexual need, you've no sexual hunger - so any attempt to explain what an orgasm gives dissolves into dusty, meaningless words. It'd like trying to explain the joys of a fulfilling career to a 14 year old who finds maths boring and doesn't particularily mind the prospect of life in a canning factory.

Imagine posing sexual questions as a 13 year old boy however. You know there's 'something up'(sic) but aren't quite sure what. My talking of sex and orgasms, though somewhat distant, would strike home and hit chords within you.

It really depends on your current position wrt God so. Are you a distant 7 year old or are you a bubbling-under-the-surface 13 year old. I can only speak from my own experience (which is not uncommon amongst believers) in saying that a 'bubbling-under-the-surface' response to descriptions of God and what he offers (both positively and negatively) tend to occur quite close to conversion. Note that a 'bubbling' response can get downright antagonistic and angry and rejecting of God, as your last defences to Gods asserting sovereignty over your life get dismantled down.

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In no particular order:

1) Any sense that there are things about you that are evil, wrong, ugly, ill-fitting, hateful, disgusting, depraved etc. find new compartments which are absolute in nature.

- these things are destined to be removed from you forever. Nothing can prevent that happening once a believer. That gives you a peace 'beyond all understanding' knowing that all will eventually turn out well. (if you don't have a sense that there are things about you that are evil, wrong, ugly etc. then you are like that 7 year old I was talking of earlier)

- these things have a particular cause (sin) and everyone is subject to them in their own way. You realise that no one is better than you (so you can hold your head up) and that no one is worse than you (so you can cease judging). The papers love trumpetting the fall of the mighty due to this or that revealed depravity. But if everyone sails in the same boat, then what?

2) (More) Peace with the world.
Realising why the world is the way it is causes you to relax about the state and future of the world. When politicians are found padding expense accounts or the Chinese industry dumps toxins in rivers you don't despair (although your heart can cry out in pain). You don't despair because that is what you know you can expect from a world governed by Sin.

Rather than fret over how the planet can be saved and how we divert from an all consumptive model of economics (in which the notion of future 'commodity wars' looms ever more frequently) you relax down and realise that God's intention isn't that this planet be saved but that it be used to show man that man cannot 'do it' on his own.

Look at us as we spiral ever-downwards, creating bigger and bigger messes, which we know (or should know) we're not going to be capable of solving.

3) True meaning from life.

Realising oneself a created being whose purpose has been set by a Creator, allows you to relax about your place in the world. No longer have you to seek self-meaning by the standard of others (who are doing the same) which will always be a bootstrap meaning (in the sense that such meaning is always illusionary)

You are worth something because he finds you valuable. Him being absolute renders your value absolute. Any value you assign yourself suffers from being a subjective value. You know that in another place at another time, others would see you as worthless and consign you to gas chambers without so much as blinking.

So much for subjective worth/meaning

4) Tied into all of the above is the opportunity to begin living life as you were meant to live it. If God then life without God is life spent digging a hole and filling it in again - no matter whether you're a President of the United States or the lowliest sweatshop worker. All purposes that aren't Gods purpose for you is vacuous

And many, many people realise that they are living pointless lives - even though they aren't believers, even though they don't know how to live pointful ones. They know that they are in some way, fooling themselves. But they don't know what else to do but keep on digging that hole

I could go on. But that will hopefully be enough for now.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

As far as the negative is concerned the only thing supporting lack of fear for God's wrath against the wrongdoing you know you've done is unbelief.

The reason I gave above merely stated you'd be judged against that knowledge. Not that there is any chance of you being found other than guilty should it be that you face judgement.

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Clearly you cannot appreciate the sense of peace that comes from forgiveness of your sin if you aren't convinced that you stand condemned already as a sinner before God. Your comment about lacking fear of God's wrath highlights that point.

Nor can you appreciate the possibilities of having a meaningful life if self-appointed meaning is deemed satisfactory. Suppose for a moment that you are currently beavering away along a path that will lead to condemnation and being cast on God's rubbish heap with the word "worthless" stamped on your forehead. How meaningful this self-appointed meaning if that's all it results in?

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Suffer a short sermon. It might help re-align where I think your focus should be viz-a-viz my points.

You haven't got peace with God. You are at emnity with God. So says God. Which means that the peace you have is illusionary - because it's peace with a world who is at war with God and on whom Gods wrath is being poured out. Factor those points into your thinking and compare yourself to me:

- you're an enemy of God who lives in a world controlled by satan. The peace, comfort and harmony you have derive from that context. Gods realm can be considered as your enemy and God is intent on the destruction of satans realm and all who align themselves with it

- I'm a friend of God who lives in a world controlled by satan. The peace, comfort and harmony I have derive from that context. Even though I live in enemy occupied territory, I know the land I'm a citizen of and have no fear of the wrath to come.

So when you equate the peace you have with the peace I have, bear the above in mind. One is peace with God, the other is peace with satans realm.

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Relationship with God clearly can't come from anywhere else. What could be more unique than having a one-to-one relationship with the creator of the universe? Is there anyone else you who could even come close in terms of being "a fascinating person to know"? Wouldn't a relationship with God trump all your other relationships put together?

You skip over a relationship with God as if not standing back to consider how "BIG" God is, or how completely own world changing having a relationship with him would be. Have you stood back to consider his magnitude for a moment? If stunned silence or feeling very tiny isn't your response then I don't think you're actually considering his magnitude.

Crikey! Even knowing God exists for sure - leaving aside a relationship with him being possible - is a worldview changing event of massive proportions.

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Biblically speaking I seriously doubt that. You might be heading for salvation but if you are it will result out of your NOT living life the way God wants it. That is to say: you're being a sinner and sinning are utilised by God in his attempt to save you.

This is not to say you should go out and sin more. Sin is a double edged sword - it can result in your salvation. Or leave you with more to be condemned for

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As ever, there is nothing irrational about God turning up and evidencing himself unempirically - given that there is nothing to prevent him doing so. Your last sentence reminds me of the rich young ruler who approached Jesus and asked;

"Rabbi, how do I inherit eternal life"

..only to find out that it is impossible. You don't find God Stile, not by any method. God finds you by his method - salvation being by his grace - not by your work. So that none can boast.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Salvation-by-work-ists would have reason to fear what God could do to them - for they cannot be sure of their salvation. Salvation-by-gracionists on the other hand, don't worry about what God could do to them (because he promises he won't) but tend to worry more about what God could do to others.

Speaking of which, have you heard the good news?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.