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Author Topic:   Assumptions of ToE
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 1 of 32 (529265)
10-08-2009 5:52 PM


In the thread about whether the religious want scientific enquiry to end, slevesque made this statement:
An intelligent christian that rejects the ToE won't reject the science behind it, he will reject the assumptions and the interpretations behind it.
I replied:
This is a common creationist misconception.
There are really only two assumptions behind the ToE; our senses provide us with accurate information about the real world behind us, and our intellect allows us to come to reliable conclusions based on the evidence we see. Coincidentally, these are the same two assumptions upon which rest all of science.
There followed are series of exchanges between slevesque, me and several others who were pursuing the topic. Based on a Nosy Admin throwing his weight around, I propose this topic:
What are the assumptions that creationists think the ToE is based on, or upon which it relies? slevesque discussed to some degree the assumptions he thought Darwin made in Origin, and I wouldn't mind a bit of discussion of that, but mainly I'd like to focus on what assumptions the ToE relies on today.
Is it Science, I would think.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by slevesque, posted 10-08-2009 6:07 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied
 Message 4 by Coyote, posted 10-08-2009 6:30 PM subbie has replied
 Message 6 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 3:50 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 5 of 32 (529295)
10-08-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Coyote
10-08-2009 6:30 PM


Re: Assumptions
quote:
In doing so, creationists attack any assumptions made by scientists if those assumptions lead to the "wrong" answers.
I don't think that's what's really going on.
But, I want this thread to focus on what creationists think about the ToE, so I'll hold back on my thoughts about those "assumptions" until we hear further from some creationists.
If none choose to speak up, I'll expound on my ideas.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Coyote, posted 10-08-2009 6:30 PM Coyote has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 12 of 32 (529486)
10-09-2009 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Peg
10-09-2009 3:50 AM


quote:
imo you cant have evolution without some form of abiogenesis which is why i include that aspect into my definition...although im aware that evolutionists dont consider abiogenesis as part of the theory.
This strikes me, not so much as an assumption of the ToE, as an assumption of the PeG.
Do you have anything relevant to add to the actual topic of this thread?

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 3:50 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ZenMonkey, posted 10-09-2009 4:49 PM subbie has seen this message but not replied
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 10-13-2009 3:49 PM subbie has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 27 of 32 (530478)
10-13-2009 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by slevesque
10-12-2009 10:05 PM


Assumptions and the scientific community
There is a wide variety of errors in your post, but for the time being, I'm going to focus on what I consider to be your major error. You confuse the work of individual scientists with the work of scientists as a whole.
You mention two specific examples of assumptions that Darwin made: small changes can accumulate from generation to generation and, with enough time, produce "major changes" such as new organs or new proteins; and the earth is old. (I think you are wrong even that Darwin assumed these things, but I'll leave that for another time because it's not important to my point.) Even if you are correct that Darwin made these assumptions, that doesn't mean that all scientists made them, or that they are assumptions that scientists now make to support the ToE.
I would accept without argument the proposition that individual scientists adopt certain assumptions in the course of developing particular hypotheses. However, before any such hypothesis is accepted by the scientific community, those assumptions are tested to see if there is evidence to support them. If evidence conflicting with the assumption is found, the hypothesis is rejected. If neither confirming nor conflicting evidence is found, the hypothesis may still be accepted tentatively, pending the confirmation or refutation of the assumption.
A real world example of this process in action can be seen in the history of Wegener's theory of continental drift. Wegener saw various indicia that suggested to him that the continents were at one time all part of one land mass, and eventually separated. An assumption behind this theory would be that the continents were capable of moving across the surface of the planet. However, that assumption conflicted with that what known about the make up of the continents and the crust of the Earth. The continents are lighter than the crust, and ultimately Wegener was unable to provide an explanation for how the lighter continents could move through the heavier crust. Thus, his theory was rejected. Later, when it was discovered that the continents actually rode on plates that moved, Wegener's theory was vindicated and accepted by the scientific community.
I can in fact name an assumption that Darwin did make. He assumed that there was some mechanism by which characteristics could be passed from one generation to another. The scientific community was unaware of any such mechanism, but the strength of evidence behind Darwin's theory was enough for the scientific community to provisionally accept it. As you know, eventually the mechanism of inheritance was found, and the assumption was confirmed. But, at no point in time did the scientific community simply accept the accuracy of the assumption. Instead, it was investigated. And that is the key thing you should learn from this discussion.
Science, as a whole, never accepts any assumption necessary to support any theory. Scientists investigate to determine if there is evidence to support the assumption.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by slevesque, posted 10-12-2009 10:05 PM slevesque has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1282 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 30 of 32 (530488)
10-13-2009 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dr Jack
10-13-2009 5:39 PM


Re: The assumptions that aren't assumed
quote:
So, no, you don't find much discussion about it in the current literature, but that's because the issue was settled decades ago not because it's being assumed by modern evolutionists.
This, I think, is exactly what creationists mean when they talk about "assumptions." There are certain facts that have been established beyond any reasonable question (in the absence of future contradictory evidence) that scientists seem to "assume" are correct, because scientists are aware of the massive body of evidence supporting them.
Nobody is doing basic research into the existence of a mechanism limiting the ability of mutations to change one species into a completely different species because of the wealth of evidence showing exactly that kind of progression. It is universally accepted as a starting point for any hypothesis, not because scientists assume it's true, but because of the evidence.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dr Jack, posted 10-13-2009 5:39 PM Dr Jack has seen this message but not replied

  
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