Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 157 (529329)
10-08-2009 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Jazzns
10-08-2009 10:42 AM


Re: No Double Fulfillment Observable
Jazzns writes:
What I am more interested in understanding is WHY you interpret this way. I am less interested in apologetics as I am in reasoning.
In my mind, you are sacrificing what would otherwise be an amazing display of prophecy fulfilled (Daniel predicting the persecution under Antiochus), to push prophecy back in order to attain some specific theological end which may or may not extend to all Christianity or even all Bible interpretation.
Apologetics is useless void of reasoning, so come, let us reason together.
In order to determine whether Daniel's prophecies have a double interpretation one must have a working knowledge of the prophecies in question.
His first prophecy was when he interpreted Neb's dream He revealed the dream and gave the precise interpretation. The interpretation concluded with the stone cut without hands striking the feet of the image and pulverizing the whole thing which was the succession of world empires down to the 10 toes (corroborating with the 10 horns of the later vision of the beast. This stone was none other than Jesus who at his coming second advent will pulverized the armies of the world and set become the great mountain/ruler of the world.
By the same corroborating token, Daniel's 10 horned beast also depicted the succession of world empires down to the 10 horns/kings, which would be the final global empire before the 2nd advent of Jesus.
How do we know when to begin looking and expecting these end time events? By looking for any corroborating events in the prophecies of Daniel and the other prophets of the OT. They all agree that the messiah which was to rule the world would be a Jew and that he would return to Jerusalem which was to be his capitol and that he was to be of the lineage of David. For that to happen there must be a nation of Israel for this event.
The reason Revelation is so important to understand the intent of Daniel's prophecies is that more data is learned from John the revelator.
1. We learn in chapter 13 that the 10 horned beast will be global just like the 10 horned beast of Daniel. Daniel said the "Most High"/messian would destroy the beast kingdom an it would be given to the his people/saints.
2. We read in Daniel chapter 7 that the 10 horned beast will make war with the saints and persecute them. This is corroborated by Revelation 13 where the 10 horned beast makes war with the saints of Jesus and overcomes them.
3. We learn in both Daniel's prophecy and John's prophect that messiah will take the global kingdom from the Gentiles and he along with his saints/Christians will rule the planet from there on. Never again in both prophecies will Gentile kingdom arise.
4. We learn in John's prophecy that this kingdom will be at a time when there will be a new global monetary system which the world has never known of until our time; i.e. a global monetary system of marks and numbers. This was all impossible until modern tech made it possible.
5. We also learn from John's prohecies that there will be technology which will allow for all of the nations, tribes and tongues of the world to view an event which happens in one place such as the Mystery Babylon burning up in one hour and of two individuals who lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem. These are found in chapter 11 and 18.
I've said all of the above to say this: None of the above happened as some kind of double fulfillment of the major prophecies of Daniel in the time of Antiochus. Logic and reasoning require that when Daniel was instructed to shut up the words of his prophecy and seal the book until the end time, he was alluding to a time when the above events would be observed upon earth. Logic and reasoning observes nothing in the time of Antiochus that comes close to fulfilling all of the data given relative to Daniel's prophecies or of the later prophecies of John, both of which are corroborated by a host of other major OT prophets and of Jesus himself who prophesied that Gentile rule would end when Jerusalem came back into the hands of regathered Jews at a time when the nation of Israel was restored.
Conclusion: There is no double fulfillment to the major prophecies of the OT, particularly Daniel, since that is the focus of our discussion.
BTW, I'm not sure what you meant relative to JW, but for the record, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness in case you got that impression. I'm an undenominationally minded evangelical, member of no church but currently active in an evangelical Seventh Day Baptist church.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Jazzns, posted 10-08-2009 10:42 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by anglagard, posted 10-09-2009 12:28 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 62 of 157 (529334)
10-09-2009 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Buzsaw
10-08-2009 11:16 PM


Welcome Back Buz
Welcome back Good Ole' Buz! Things have gone downhill without you IMO. I miss those who actually dare to respond to posts in the spirit of honest debate.
Now, in the words of Richard Pryor's neighbor's dog, "I'm still going to have to chase you tomorrow." (I would like to link to the original video, but am afraid you would not be able to see it through to the punchline, with all that seventh day humorlessness over some topics).
At any rate welcome back! (does this mean you are gearing up to take a crack at jar and ringo at the other place?)
To admins: sorry about the off topic crap, but I miss Buzsaw, he is wrong for real, instead of fake.
Edited by anglagard, : title as obvious

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 10-08-2009 11:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2009 11:31 AM anglagard has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 63 of 157 (529340)
10-09-2009 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Peg
10-08-2009 8:14 PM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
I thought i did answer your question directly. You wanted to know what reasons there were for accepting 'another' interpretation other then the application to the time of the maccabees. I explained that it was because Jesus used Daniels prophecy about the disgusting thing as something yet to come. This means that according to Jesus, the fulfillment of Vs20 could not have been 163 years earlier.
i.e. your interpretation is not justified by the text of Daniel. In fact this just illustrates the problem Jazz wanted to bring forth. You feel that you have to reject the plain reading with its clear fulfillment because you have another interpretation that you prefer for reasons external to the text of Daniel. Proposing a double fulfillment would permit you to keep both interpretations.
quote:
If you believe that Jesus was the Messiah, then you'd have to accept that his words are truth as he said they were. You'd also need to explain why Antiochus IV did not desolate the temple in the same complete sense that the Romans did.
Antiochus DID desecrate the Temple, and arguably more completely than the Romans. Antiochus actually set up a pagan altar in the Temple itself and pagan sacrifices were held there. That's more than the Romans did.
quote:
I would think that this is evidence that the prophecy was more fulfilled by the Romans seeing they put Jewish worship completely out of action...that is complete annialation. The priesthood was never reinstitued in Isreal and the 'constant feature' of sacrifices was gone and still is gone. Antiochus had a 3 year battle that ended and the temple suffered no permanent damage. Life went on and the temple and its priesthood survived.
And that is a much better fit for Daniel. Daniel 12:11 states that there will be 1290 days from the abolition of the sacrifices and the setting up of the abomination. The Roman destruction of the Temple was in 70 AD - more than 1900 years ago.
quote:
We have already entered the 'end times' and we are living them right now.
Daniel 8 places the "end times" in the Hellenistic period, as I have pointed out. How do you deal with that ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Peg, posted 10-08-2009 8:14 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 3:59 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 64 of 157 (529349)
10-09-2009 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by PaulK
10-09-2009 2:03 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
Antiochus DID desecrate the Temple, and arguably more completely than the Romans. Antiochus actually set up a pagan altar in the Temple itself and pagan sacrifices were held there. That's more than the Romans did.
the desstruction in 70ce brought the whole jewish system to its knees and put an end to their entire system of worship. After the destruction in 70ce the priestly sacrifices ended, the temple was burned to the ground and today only one part of the 'wailing wall' exists.
how can you honestly say that antiochus 3 year battle was worse then what the romans did?
over 1 million jews were killed in 70CE...how many did Antiochus kill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 2:03 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 4:10 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 65 of 157 (529350)
10-09-2009 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Peg
10-09-2009 3:59 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
the desstruction in 70ce brought the whole jewish system to its knees and put an end to their entire system of worship. After the destruction in 70ce the priestly sacrifices ended, the temple was burned to the ground and today only one part of the 'wailing wall' exists.
how can you honestly say that antiochus 3 year battle was worse then what the romans did?
In terms of defiling the Temple, I would say that setting up a pagan altar in the sanctuary and conducting pagan sacrifices in there (likely including the sacrifice of pigs) was worse than marching in there and setting light to the place.
On top of that Daniel 12 makes it clear that it will be a short time before things are put right, as I pointed out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 3:59 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 5:08 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 66 of 157 (529356)
10-09-2009 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by PaulK
10-09-2009 4:10 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
if were were living in the maccabean time and witnessed that, then i'd probably agree and also would have applied daniels prophecy to Antiochus
however if i was a jew living in 70ce and witnessed the killing of over 1million of my fellow citizens and the temple of jerusalem completely destroyed by roman armies carrying ensigns, i'd probably think that the fulfillement was happening right then.
I agree its not hard to see why the maccabeeans applied to prophecy to Antiochus, however, as I said, in 29CE Jesus applied Daniels prophecy to a future time and therefore I cant justify applying the prophecy to an earlier time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 4:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 5:22 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 67 of 157 (529359)
10-09-2009 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Peg
10-09-2009 5:08 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
however if i was a jew living in 70ce and witnessed the killing of over 1million of my fellow citizens and the temple of jerusalem completely destroyed by roman armies carrying ensigns, i'd probably think that the fulfillement was happening right then.
Maybe, but the reasons for that are nothing to do with the match of the prophecy to events. There are strong reasons in the text of Daniel for considering it to refer to Antiochs (I have already referred to Daniel 8).
quote:
I agree its not hard to see why the maccabeeans applied to prophecy to Antiochus, however, as I said, in 29CE Jesus applied Daniels prophecy to a future time and therefore I cant justify applying the prophecy to an earlier time.
This is exactly what Jazz is interested in.
For myself I would like to know how you deal with Daniel 8 which firmly places the end times in the Hellenistic period, before Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 5:08 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 7:01 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 68 of 157 (529371)
10-09-2009 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by PaulK
10-09-2009 5:22 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
For myself I would like to know how you deal with Daniel 8 which firmly places the end times in the Hellenistic period, before Jesus.
we've been discussing Daniel 11, not chptr 8 so it sesms we've been taling about different passages
Daniel 8 is the Hellenistic period, it explains itself
quote:
Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end. 18And while he was speaking with me, I had become fast asleep on my face on the earth. So he touched me and made me stand up where I had been standing. 19And he went on to say: Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end. 20The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Me′di‧a and Persia. 21And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece
so i am not contending this
Its chpter 11 i've been talking about.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 5:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 7:25 AM Peg has replied
 Message 74 by Jazzns, posted 10-09-2009 6:14 PM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 69 of 157 (529372)
10-09-2009 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Peg
10-09-2009 7:01 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
we've been discussing Daniel 11, not chptr 8 so it sesms we've been taling about different passages
No. Daniel 8 is relevant context whne interpreting Daniel 11.
quote:
Daniel 8 is the Hellenistic period, it explains itself
Indeed it does - it clearly indicates that the "time of the end" is in the Hellenistic period.
quote:
Its chpter 11 i've been talking about.
So Daniel 8 is wrong and should be ignored ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 7:01 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 8:56 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 70 of 157 (529394)
10-09-2009 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by PaulK
10-09-2009 7:25 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
PaulK writes:
So Daniel 8 is wrong and should be ignored ?
no, Daniel 8 is a stand alone prophecy involving certain events from the time of the medio Persian empire and the take over by Alexander
Daniel 11 is a detailed account of the struggles between the kings of the north and the south thru time until the last days.
they are different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 7:25 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2009 9:56 AM Peg has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 71 of 157 (529426)
10-09-2009 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Peg
10-09-2009 8:56 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
quote:
no, Daniel 8 is a stand alone prophecy involving certain events from the time of the medio Persian empire and the take over by Alexander
How do you reconcile that idea with the fact that Daniel 8 is about the "time of the end" ?
(And you should note that it is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes, with definite links to Daniel 11-12)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 8:56 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 11:35 PM PaulK has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 157 (529447)
10-09-2009 11:13 AM


On Speculation And Ambiguity
A large portion of this thread has been about speculative interpretations as to what two chapters; 11 and 12, the most ambiguous chapters of Daniel's book say and mean and as to whether they may possibly convey some sort of double fulfillment. It appears that these two ambiguous chapters are about all of the hope for proponents of double fulfillment offering any argument at all for double fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies.
The first ten chapters (5/6th) of Daniels prophecies are the most significant and the most corroborated by other major prophets in the Bible, yet little has been covered on the greater part of Daniel in this thread.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 157 (529454)
10-09-2009 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by anglagard
10-09-2009 12:28 AM


Re: Welcome Back Buz
Thank you kindly, Anglagard. It's nice to be back among EvC friends as a representive of the minority POV.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by anglagard, posted 10-09-2009 12:28 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 74 of 157 (529545)
10-09-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Peg
10-09-2009 7:01 AM


Re: Getting into Daniel
I have not limited myself to Daniel 11 and in fact expressly mentioned earlier chapters as foreshadowing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 7:01 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 10-09-2009 7:42 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 77 by Peg, posted 10-09-2009 11:41 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 157 (529586)
10-09-2009 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Jazzns
10-09-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Getting into Daniel
Jazzns writes:
I have not limited myself to Daniel 11 and in fact expressly mentioned earlier chapters as foreshadowing.
So 5/6th of the book is forshadowing? Forshadowing what? Could you elaborate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Jazzns, posted 10-09-2009 6:14 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 11:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024