|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 3911 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jazzns writes: What I am more interested in understanding is WHY you interpret this way. I am less interested in apologetics as I am in reasoning. In my mind, you are sacrificing what would otherwise be an amazing display of prophecy fulfilled (Daniel predicting the persecution under Antiochus), to push prophecy back in order to attain some specific theological end which may or may not extend to all Christianity or even all Bible interpretation. Apologetics is useless void of reasoning, so come, let us reason together. In order to determine whether Daniel's prophecies have a double interpretation one must have a working knowledge of the prophecies in question. His first prophecy was when he interpreted Neb's dream He revealed the dream and gave the precise interpretation. The interpretation concluded with the stone cut without hands striking the feet of the image and pulverizing the whole thing which was the succession of world empires down to the 10 toes (corroborating with the 10 horns of the later vision of the beast. This stone was none other than Jesus who at his coming second advent will pulverized the armies of the world and set become the great mountain/ruler of the world. By the same corroborating token, Daniel's 10 horned beast also depicted the succession of world empires down to the 10 horns/kings, which would be the final global empire before the 2nd advent of Jesus. How do we know when to begin looking and expecting these end time events? By looking for any corroborating events in the prophecies of Daniel and the other prophets of the OT. They all agree that the messiah which was to rule the world would be a Jew and that he would return to Jerusalem which was to be his capitol and that he was to be of the lineage of David. For that to happen there must be a nation of Israel for this event. The reason Revelation is so important to understand the intent of Daniel's prophecies is that more data is learned from John the revelator. 1. We learn in chapter 13 that the 10 horned beast will be global just like the 10 horned beast of Daniel. Daniel said the "Most High"/messian would destroy the beast kingdom an it would be given to the his people/saints.2. We read in Daniel chapter 7 that the 10 horned beast will make war with the saints and persecute them. This is corroborated by Revelation 13 where the 10 horned beast makes war with the saints of Jesus and overcomes them. 3. We learn in both Daniel's prophecy and John's prophect that messiah will take the global kingdom from the Gentiles and he along with his saints/Christians will rule the planet from there on. Never again in both prophecies will Gentile kingdom arise. 4. We learn in John's prophecy that this kingdom will be at a time when there will be a new global monetary system which the world has never known of until our time; i.e. a global monetary system of marks and numbers. This was all impossible until modern tech made it possible. 5. We also learn from John's prohecies that there will be technology which will allow for all of the nations, tribes and tongues of the world to view an event which happens in one place such as the Mystery Babylon burning up in one hour and of two individuals who lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem. These are found in chapter 11 and 18. I've said all of the above to say this: None of the above happened as some kind of double fulfillment of the major prophecies of Daniel in the time of Antiochus. Logic and reasoning require that when Daniel was instructed to shut up the words of his prophecy and seal the book until the end time, he was alluding to a time when the above events would be observed upon earth. Logic and reasoning observes nothing in the time of Antiochus that comes close to fulfilling all of the data given relative to Daniel's prophecies or of the later prophecies of John, both of which are corroborated by a host of other major OT prophets and of Jesus himself who prophesied that Gentile rule would end when Jerusalem came back into the hands of regathered Jews at a time when the nation of Israel was restored. Conclusion: There is no double fulfillment to the major prophecies of the OT, particularly Daniel, since that is the focus of our discussion. BTW, I'm not sure what you meant relative to JW, but for the record, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness in case you got that impression. I'm an undenominationally minded evangelical, member of no church but currently active in an evangelical Seventh Day Baptist church. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
anglagard Member (Idle past 836 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Welcome back Good Ole' Buz! Things have gone downhill without you IMO. I miss those who actually dare to respond to posts in the spirit of honest debate.
Now, in the words of Richard Pryor's neighbor's dog, "I'm still going to have to chase you tomorrow." (I would like to link to the original video, but am afraid you would not be able to see it through to the punchline, with all that seventh day humorlessness over some topics). At any rate welcome back! (does this mean you are gearing up to take a crack at jar and ringo at the other place?) To admins: sorry about the off topic crap, but I miss Buzsaw, he is wrong for real, instead of fake. Edited by anglagard, : title as obvious The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes. Salman Rushdie This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: i.e. your interpretation is not justified by the text of Daniel. In fact this just illustrates the problem Jazz wanted to bring forth. You feel that you have to reject the plain reading with its clear fulfillment because you have another interpretation that you prefer for reasons external to the text of Daniel. Proposing a double fulfillment would permit you to keep both interpretations.
quote: Antiochus DID desecrate the Temple, and arguably more completely than the Romans. Antiochus actually set up a pagan altar in the Temple itself and pagan sacrifices were held there. That's more than the Romans did.
quote: And that is a much better fit for Daniel. Daniel 12:11 states that there will be 1290 days from the abolition of the sacrifices and the setting up of the abomination. The Roman destruction of the Temple was in 70 AD - more than 1900 years ago.
quote: Daniel 8 places the "end times" in the Hellenistic period, as I have pointed out. How do you deal with that ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: Antiochus DID desecrate the Temple, and arguably more completely than the Romans. Antiochus actually set up a pagan altar in the Temple itself and pagan sacrifices were held there. That's more than the Romans did. the desstruction in 70ce brought the whole jewish system to its knees and put an end to their entire system of worship. After the destruction in 70ce the priestly sacrifices ended, the temple was burned to the ground and today only one part of the 'wailing wall' exists. how can you honestly say that antiochus 3 year battle was worse then what the romans did? over 1 million jews were killed in 70CE...how many did Antiochus kill?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: In terms of defiling the Temple, I would say that setting up a pagan altar in the sanctuary and conducting pagan sacrifices in there (likely including the sacrifice of pigs) was worse than marching in there and setting light to the place. On top of that Daniel 12 makes it clear that it will be a short time before things are put right, as I pointed out.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
if were were living in the maccabean time and witnessed that, then i'd probably agree and also would have applied daniels prophecy to Antiochus
however if i was a jew living in 70ce and witnessed the killing of over 1million of my fellow citizens and the temple of jerusalem completely destroyed by roman armies carrying ensigns, i'd probably think that the fulfillement was happening right then. I agree its not hard to see why the maccabeeans applied to prophecy to Antiochus, however, as I said, in 29CE Jesus applied Daniels prophecy to a future time and therefore I cant justify applying the prophecy to an earlier time.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Maybe, but the reasons for that are nothing to do with the match of the prophecy to events. There are strong reasons in the text of Daniel for considering it to refer to Antiochs (I have already referred to Daniel 8).
quote: This is exactly what Jazz is interested in. For myself I would like to know how you deal with Daniel 8 which firmly places the end times in the Hellenistic period, before Jesus.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: For myself I would like to know how you deal with Daniel 8 which firmly places the end times in the Hellenistic period, before Jesus. we've been discussing Daniel 11, not chptr 8 so it sesms we've been taling about different passages Daniel 8 is the Hellenistic period, it explains itself
quote: so i am not contending this Its chpter 11 i've been talking about. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: No. Daniel 8 is relevant context whne interpreting Daniel 11.
quote: Indeed it does - it clearly indicates that the "time of the end" is in the Hellenistic period.
quote: So Daniel 8 is wrong and should be ignored ?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
PaulK writes: So Daniel 8 is wrong and should be ignored ? no, Daniel 8 is a stand alone prophecy involving certain events from the time of the medio Persian empire and the take over by Alexander Daniel 11 is a detailed account of the struggles between the kings of the north and the south thru time until the last days. they are different.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: How do you reconcile that idea with the fact that Daniel 8 is about the "time of the end" ? (And you should note that it is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes, with definite links to Daniel 11-12)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
A large portion of this thread has been about speculative interpretations as to what two chapters; 11 and 12, the most ambiguous chapters of Daniel's book say and mean and as to whether they may possibly convey some sort of double fulfillment. It appears that these two ambiguous chapters are about all of the hope for proponents of double fulfillment offering any argument at all for double fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies.
The first ten chapters (5/6th) of Daniels prophecies are the most significant and the most corroborated by other major prophets in the Bible, yet little has been covered on the greater part of Daniel in this thread. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Thank you kindly, Anglagard. It's nice to be back among EvC friends as a representive of the minority POV.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazzns Member (Idle past 3911 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I have not limited myself to Daniel 11 and in fact expressly mentioned earlier chapters as foreshadowing.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jazzns writes: I have not limited myself to Daniel 11 and in fact expressly mentioned earlier chapters as foreshadowing. So 5/6th of the book is forshadowing? Forshadowing what? Could you elaborate?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024