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Author
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Topic: Why did Noah's descendents forsake God so quickly?
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 4 of 74 (529888)
10-10-2009 10:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Izanagi
10-10-2009 12:41 PM
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Izanaqi writes: So how can anyone explain this apparent immediate forsaking of a belief in God whose power was proven just a few hundred years prior? How is it that we can get from eight people with one belief to the variety of beliefs we have today especially if those eight people knew, for a fact, that their belief was true? for the same reason that Adam, who could speak to God, chose to disobey and for the same reason that Cain, who likely could see the entrance to the garden of Eden, chose to disobey. We do what we choose to, its called free will. Noahs decendents knew about the flood but, like Adam and Cain, they chose to do their own thing. there is also the issue of Satan the devil who deliberately opposes God, He influenced Adam into disobedience in the garden of eden and he exerted that same decietfulness on Noahs decendents.
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Revelation 12:9So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
One thing that Noahs decendents prove though is that the flood really did happen and they did not deny that. If you look at every nation on earth from the athiest chinese to the australian aboriginies to the american indians, they all have legends involving a worldwide flood with only a few people surviving in a vessel. So while they did not maintain accurate knowledge of Noahs God, they did continue to believe in and teach their children the story of the flood. Edited by Peg, : No reason given. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Izanagi, posted 10-10-2009 12:41 PM | | Izanagi has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 10 of 74 (529936)
10-11-2009 7:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Izanagi
10-11-2009 1:43 AM
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Izanaqi writes: Adam still believed in God afterwards, so did Cain. You may know God exists and still turn your back on God. They knew God existed and and turned their backs on God, but they didn't start worshiping Shiva. that may be true, but we really dont know how they were worshiping or even if they were worshiping. Shiva came along well after the days of the flood. The explanation i would give is that after the tower of Babel incident (where people were given different languages) they went in their separate directions on the earth and took whatever knowlege they had with them. That knowledge became more and more distorted over the years and the God whom they had heard about thru their great great grandfathers, was given new identities. So if 50 new nations developed after Babel, then after a length of time 50 new dieties were invented and the spin off from that is 50 new ways to worship the original God that they had heard about as children.
Izanaqi writes: You know who was a descendant of Noah... Abraham. Why did this small group of people remember God but the others completely forgot? Certainly, Noah and his sons lived long enough to properly chastise their descendants, right? This is where you have to take the above story into consideration. The children of Noah thought they would build a tower that would send them up to the heavens and they could be like God. This was displeasing to him so he confused their languages and they all dispersed. Shem was still alive and witnessed that event. He and his immediate family who still worhsiped Jehovah kept their original language (hebrew) but all the others were given new languages. This is why Abraham and his immediate decendants spoke Hebrew and worhshiped Noah and Shems God. As a family they remained worshipers while other decendents did not.
Izanaqi writes: some of Noah's descendants, probably grandchildren and great-grandchildren, went to Egypt, conveniently forgot all knowledge of God, established a polytheistic religion based on leader worship, and built the Pyramids of Giza. All of this while Noah and his sons are still alive. Does that make sense to you? In this day and age it is extremely hard to change the beliefs of people who don't even know God exists. well they didnt really forget, they just changed the story about him. All the nations have gods...this shows that they didnt forget God. Unfortunately stories get changed over time and this is what the isolated groups of people did. They worshiped the God they had previously known about, but after a couple of generations the purity of their understanding became diluted and the stories changed. The point is thought that they all still have stories that have very similar themes and characters. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Izanagi, posted 10-11-2009 1:43 AM | | Izanagi has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Izanagi, posted 10-11-2009 11:33 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 11 of 74 (529938)
10-11-2009 7:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Rrhain
10-11-2009 2:25 AM
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Genesis 10:5 does not read like that in all bibles. it looks like you are using a kjv more modern bibles put it more accurately in line with the original hebrew NIV "By these the maritime peoples spread out into their territories by their clans within their nations, each with its own language NWT "From these the population of the isles of the nations was spread about in their lands, each according to its tongue, according to their families, by their nations.
Rrhain writes: And what was this about different tongues? The tongues won't be split until Genesis 11. So why is it that just two verses after that last claim of different languages, Genesis goes on to say that "the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech"? Verse 1 explains it in the first few words: And this is the history of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham and Ja′pheth. Now sons began to be born to them after the deluge Moses was giving a condensed history of the children of Noahs sons and where they came to dwell on the earth. Its not a chronological book. Genesis is made up of scrolls. Individual scrolls of many different subjects. When reading the bible, its not good to be of the mindset that the writers wrote a novel. They didnt write like that. We have put it into book form and we have changed the scrolls into one book with chapters and paragraphs....the orignal writers did not write it to ever be as a book. Perhaps if they did, they would have made the chapters and paragraphs for us to save any confusion.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 10-11-2009 2:25 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 20 of 74 (530066)
10-12-2009 4:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 16 by Rrhain
10-12-2009 2:11 AM
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Rrhain writes: So what makes you think your translation is any better? The word used in Gen 10:5 is "ha.go.yim." This means a nation or people, but mostly those who either aren't Jewish, are descendents of Abraham, or with regard to Israel. the problem with the word 'gentile' being used there is that the ancient hebrews called people from other nations 'Pagans' not gentiles. Gentile was a word that came many centuries later.
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Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament:
Hebrew evidences a tendency for 'goy' to describe a people in terms of its political and territorial affiliation, and so to approximate much more closely to our modern term ‘nation.’ ‛am [people], conversely, always retains a strong emphasis on the element of consanguinity as the basis of union into a people. (Edited by G.J. Botterweck and H.Ringgren, Vol. 2, 1975, p. 427)
and if you look at wikipedia you'll see that what it says about the word gentile is that it "derives from Latin gens (from which, together with forms of the cognate Greek word genos, also derive gene, general, genus and genesis). The original meaning of "clan" or "family" was extended in post-Augustan Latin to acquire the wider meaning of belonging to a distinct nation or ethnicity. Later still the word came to mean "foreign", i.e. non-Roman. After the Christianization of the empire it could also be used of pagan or barbarian cultures." So yes i would say that the translations that take this into consideration are better then the KJV...because its accurate and doesnt give the strange impression that the writer of genesis stuffed up some how.
Rrhain writes: Nice try, but that's my point to you: The reason why these texts have so many internal contradictions, why it cannot hold a single thought in its head for any length of time...somtimes losing track of what it had just said within a single sentence...is because these texts don't have anything to do with each other. if you took a collection of steven kings novels and combined them into 1 novel continuous novel, what sort of sense do you think it will make if you tried to read it like 1 novel? It would make very little sense. For the same reason you cant read Genesis like a novel...its a combination of several different books. You need to read them individually on their own merit. One does not necesarily begin where the previous one left off. Its not chronological.
Rrhain writes: You're making my point again: These texts don't have anything to do with each other. The Bible isn't a single, coherent piece of work. It's as if a whirlwind wandered through a library and someone randomly gathered up sheets and tried to make some sense of the pages found. if you know that then why are you critisizing it for not being in logical order. The books were placed in the order they are in by early translators...they didnt know the order that moses wrote them...he didnt number them, the translators did. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 10-12-2009 2:11 AM | | Rrhain has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 71 by Rrhain, posted 10-15-2009 2:58 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Flood legends on all continents.
Samples from six continents and the islands of the sea; hundreds of such legends are known:
quote:
Australia - Kurnai
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Babylon - Berossus’ account
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Babylon - Gilgamesh epic
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Bolivia - Chiriguano
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Borneo - Sea Dayak
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Burma - Singpho
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Canada - Cree
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Canada - Montagnais
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
China - Lolo
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Cuba - original natives
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
East Africa - Masai
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Egypt - Book of the Dead
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Fiji - Walavu-levu tradition
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
French Polynesia - Raata
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
quote:
Greece - Lucian’s account
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Guyana - Macushi
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Iceland - Eddas
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
India - Andaman Islands
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
India - Bhil
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
India - Kamar
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Iran - Zend-Avesta
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
quote:
Italy - Ovid’s poetry
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Malay Peninsula - Jakun
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Mexico - Codex Chimalpopoca
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Mexico - Huichol
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
New Zealand - Maori
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Peru - Indians of Huarochir
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
quote:
Russia - Vogul
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
U.S.A. (Alaska) - Kolusches
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
U.S.A. (Alaska) - Tlingit
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
U.S.A. (Arizona) - Papago
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
U.S.A. (Hawaii) - legend of Nu-u
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Vanuatu - Melanesians
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Vietnam - Bahnar
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
quote:
Wales - Dwyfan/Dwyfach legend
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel
i've given you the names of the nations, you should be able to find info on each individual one...of course i could have made up that list...or i could not have lol. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Flood legends on all continents.
DrAdequate writes: I have researched flood myths extensively, and all the cherry-picking in the world won't make your original statement true. i take it that means you are not going any further?
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Re: Flood legends on all continents.
bluescat48 writes: What good is a flood story in a place that normally has floods. The story would have some merit if in a floodless area. there is evidence that even the driest places on earth were once flooded with water. We have deserts in australia too and you know what we find there? seashells! The Pinnacles in the Western Australian desert is one such example.
The Pinnacle Desert
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by bluescat48, posted 10-12-2009 9:04 AM | | bluescat48 has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 44 of 74 (530343)
10-13-2009 4:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 38 by Izanagi
10-12-2009 10:00 AM
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Izanaqi writes: Yet consider that for at least a generation a great majority of the Hebrews were able to keep to their faith under the whips of Pharaoh. Doesn't it seem contradictory to say that they lost faith so quickly in one instance while in another instance they kept to their faith so strongly? that is not quite true the accounts in the bible show that many of the isrealites in egypt did not believe that Moses had been sent to rescue them. They even tried to stone him at one point immediately after being taken out of Egypt, they began to condemn Moses for leading them out to the wilderness 'in order to die' and when Moses went up into the mountain to recieve Gods laws, many decided to make a golden calf and began to worship it and say that it was the golden calf that saved them from Egypt. So they were not a nation of faithful adherents. They were infact rebellious and stubborn and continually transgressed the laws given them by God. They were making allegiences with foreign nations and were led into false worship by the nations around them. Some of the kings of Isreal even introduced pagan worship including human sacrifice. They were far from faithful as a whole.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by Izanagi, posted 10-12-2009 10:00 AM | | Izanagi has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 4:23 AM | | Peg has replied |
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4955 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: 11-22-2008
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Message 46 of 74 (530354)
10-13-2009 5:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Izanagi
10-13-2009 4:23 AM
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Izanaqi writes: However they may have turned their back on God, they still believed in him. God worship as a whole did not die out. yes that exactly right. They knew who the God of their forefathers were yet they still actively took part in worship of other false gods...the gods of egypt included a cow god and what did the isrealites make while they waited for Moses to return?? a golden calf knowing Noahs God does not mean that the people are going to keep worshiping him...even after he displayed his strength to the isrealites, they still turned their back on him. Why would Noahs immediate decendents be any different? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 4:23 AM | | Izanagi has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 47 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 6:37 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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