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Author Topic:   Baby Denied Health Care Coverage For Being "Too Fat"
Modulous
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 16 of 184 (530190)
10-12-2009 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 4:47 PM


Let me just ask you this, in the UK basic health care is essentially a right is it not? If so, do you agree that it should be?

For most definitions of 'basic health care' - yes.

I was about to reply a bit harshly but figure maybe it has something to do with the literal ocean between us.

Now that I am warned - I'm also curious. Do you have a problem that I am making my living as a result of the insurance industry (I'm not an organ grinder or anything, just a monkey)?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 4:47 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:05 PM Modulous has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2085 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 17 of 184 (530192)
10-12-2009 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 4:35 PM


You basically did not respond to any of the points that I was making.

Nobody is talking about unlimited amounts of health care for everyone. It is noteworthy that every single other industrialized nation has defined pretty well a standard level of care for which every single citizen has a right to have.

That is greed, plain and simple. Not on the part of the insurance companies, but on the part of the OP who thinks that others should be forced to pay for your healthcare.

And yet we have absolutly NO PROBLEM paying for everybody elses "firecare" and "hurricancare" and "crimecare". Is it equally unjustifiable that people who happen to live in neighborhoods with low crime pay for the police who spend most of the time in the "bad" neighborhoods?

I find it APPALLING that you can call "greed" the desire to live when you have a perfectly manageable and cureable disease or accident, perhaps by no fault of your own. Nobody, not even the MOST liberal advocates of health care reform are advocating unlimited health care for everyone.

We have limited resources. We *cannot* afford everything that can be done to help people, and we don't have the ethical right to choose for them what can be done. The choice should be made by the person themselves, according to how many resources they choose to devote to it of their own.

Which is a TOTAL strawman of what I was saying, or what anybody is proposing a single payer or other universal system should be.

Also, what resources does that baby have if tomorrow he is diagnosed with lymphoma? Apparrently his only "choice" is to die?


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 4:35 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:08 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 184 (530193)
10-12-2009 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
10-12-2009 4:52 PM


Modulous writes:

But profiting from insurance (either as an insured or as an insurer) is against the principles of insurance...


Umm, no it isn't? The idea of insurance is, for the insurer, to provide the benefit of a large pool of capital to cover unexpected eventualities in exchange for a rate of return higher than inflation. Otherwise they would be wise to invest their money elsewhere rather than devoting it to what is in essence charity.

Modulous writes:

...such as large insurers artificially increasing the premiums to mutually increase their profits...


Hmm, that sounds like a monopoly. Don't we have laws against that?

Modulous writes:

...but it is fundamentally against the principles of a free market.


No, that is totally the goal of a free market. It is just that the goals of a government are not always in line with the goals of a free market.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2009 4:52 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2009 5:08 PM Phage0070 has responded
 Message 32 by jacortina, posted 10-12-2009 6:21 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2085 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 184 (530196)
10-12-2009 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Modulous
10-12-2009 4:56 PM


So you do realized that what I am talking about is insurance to provide 'basic health care' by pretty much any reasonable definition.

I certainly do not mind medical insurance for stuff beyond that. I just hope you realize that in the USA, if you happened to get a treatable cancer right now, assuming you couldn't afford care or are unable to obtain charity, you would probably die. I don't think it is that way in the UK.

Luckily for that little baby, he is probably covered by the single payer system called SCHIP assuming his parents are poor enough.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2009 4:56 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2009 5:14 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 184 (530198)
10-12-2009 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 5:01 PM


Jazzns writes:

It is noteworthy that every single other industrialized nation has defined pretty well a standard level of care for which every single citizen has a right to have.


Then I feel compelled to note that I don't live in any of those other nations, and I think ours is better.

Jazzns writes:

Is it equally unjustifiable that people who happen to live in neighborhoods with low crime pay for the police who spend most of the time in the "bad" neighborhoods?


The police are the regular soup kitchen, which you will note I didn't say was a bad idea. However, if you want more security like armed guards patrolling your estate, guess what? You can *pay* for it from a private company! Gosh, what an idea!

Also, who is to say that the police spending a lot of their time in the bad neighborhoods isn't of benefit to the good neighborhoods?

Jazzns writes:

I find it APPALLING that you can call "greed" the desire to live when..


Desire to live is expected, it is GREED when you want to take from others to help yourself.

Jazzns writes:

Also, what resources does that baby have if tomorrow he is diagnosed with lymphoma? Apparrently his only "choice" is to die?


Depends, can he pay for it? Can he get a loan? Loans happen all the time you know.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:01 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:18 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 21 of 184 (530199)
10-12-2009 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 5:01 PM


The idea of insurance is, for the insurer, to provide the benefit of a large pool of capital to cover unexpected eventualities in exchange for a rate of return higher than inflation. Otherwise they would be wise to invest their money elsewhere rather than devoting it to what is in essence charity.

They do invest 'their' money elsewhere. It's actually their customer's money. As I said - 20% of LSE is owned by insurance companies. That's where they should make their money. The motor insurance industry in the UK often runs at an underwriting loss (one year I remember it was about 100million) but the insurance companies don't collapse because they make a lot more money investing their customers money.

...such as large insurers artificially increasing the premiums to mutually increase their profits...

Hmm, that sounds like a monopoly. Don't we have laws against that?

It's not a monopoly - that is when only one company can provide the goods or service and especially is in a position to prevent others from entering a market. Price fixing is illegal, as is insurance fraud. But making things illegal does not remove the concept of moral hazard in finance. As we should know only to well.

...but it is fundamentally against the principles of a free market.

No, that is totally the goal of a free market.

The goal of a free market is regulate profits by legislation? Really?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:01 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:17 PM Modulous has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 22 of 184 (530203)
10-12-2009 5:12 PM


In Canada
Here in Canada we have decided that a person should not live or die based on how rich they are. The idea that money should be the deciding factor over life or death is considered to be inappropriate here.

We do not have a perfect system but it delivers more and better health care than the US at a lot less cost.

This seems to be a result of a society that acts with more Christian charity than the so-called "society" of the USA while having half or less as many theists per capita.


  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2085 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 23 of 184 (530204)
10-12-2009 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 4:56 PM


Why? Tell me your justification for why someone deserves something they cannot afford.

The easy answer is because we are not sadistic monsters without care for our neighbors wellbeing.

The perhaps better answer is because there is a public interest in doing so, AND the public wants us to. Overwhelmingly in fact.

Furthermore, it is the EXACT same reason why we give away free fire and rescue protection, free public education, free disaster recovery, etc. EVERYONE is better off because of those things and not just the people who are recieving benefits disproportionate to their contributions.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 4:56 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:21 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 24 of 184 (530205)
10-12-2009 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 5:05 PM


So you do realized that what I am talking about is insurance to provide 'basic health care' by pretty much any reasonable definition.

Yep - and it should exist. It is my view that a government should provide healthcare for all its citizens who in turn should pay an income adjusted tax or insurance towards running this.

I certainly do not mind medical insurance for stuff beyond that. I just hope you realize that in the USA, if you happened to get a treatable cancer right now, assuming you couldn't afford care or are unable to obtain charity, you would probably die. I don't think it is that way in the UK.

It depends how much it costs. The NHS won't pay for all treatments. They will refuse certain drugs that cost too much, and then you have to beg with the local NHS trusts and we get what is often called a 'postcode lottery'. And if you are still out of luck you might need to go somewhere else, like the USA or Switzerland or something. It ain't perfect over here


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:05 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 184 (530206)
10-12-2009 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Modulous
10-12-2009 5:08 PM


Modulous writes:

They do invest 'their' money elsewhere. It's actually their customer's money.


No, actually it is their money. The insurance companies have agreed to pay for certain classes of expenses, not to provide the customer's money back to them. The fact that they pay for the service is another issue, the companies don't have pools of "customer money" or one big pot that belongs to "the customers". They have obligations they must fulfill from their own resources, and a stream of income in exchange for those obligations.

Modulous writes:

But making things illegal does not remove the concept of moral hazard in finance.


And making stealing illegal does not stop theft. Sometimes endless work is not a bad thing.

Modulous writes:

The goal of a free market is regulate profits by legislation? Really?


Got that mixed up with you saying that the goal of insurance providers wasn't profit.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2009 5:08 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2009 5:55 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2085 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 26 of 184 (530207)
10-12-2009 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 5:08 PM


Also, who is to say that the police spending a lot of their time in the bad neighborhoods isn't of benefit to the good neighborhoods?

Ummm...Yea!!! Exactly!! The same actually applies to basic health care it turns out!!

Jazzns writes:

Also, what resources does that baby have if tomorrow he is diagnosed with lymphoma? Apparrently his only "choice" is to
die?


Depends, can he pay for it? Can he get a loan? Loans happen all the time you know.

I'm trying to think of some dispationate argument to reply to this. But all my brain can come up with is that you are a sick fuck. Damn you!


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:08 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:23 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 184 (530209)
10-12-2009 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 5:14 PM


Jazzns writes:

The perhaps better answer is because there is a public interest in doing so, AND the public wants us to. Overwhelmingly in fact.


Then this overwhelming majority should have no trouble passing the healthcare bill, right? Or perhaps this "overwhelming majority" is a little more divided than you care to admit?

Jazzns writes:

Furthermore, it is the EXACT same reason why we give away free fire and rescue protection, free public education, free disaster recovery, etc. EVERYONE is better off because of those things and not just the people who are recieving benefits disproportionate to their contributions.


A public service I can support, but having it as the *only* option is not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:14 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:29 PM Phage0070 has responded
 Message 40 by Izanagi, posted 10-12-2009 9:23 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 184 (530211)
10-12-2009 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 5:18 PM


Jazzns writes:

I'm trying to think of some dispationate argument to reply to this. But all my brain can come up with is that you are a sick fuck. Damn you!


Think of the BABIES!!! (waggles arms and legs in a fit)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:18 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 5:31 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2085 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 29 of 184 (530213)
10-12-2009 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 5:21 PM


Then this overwhelming majority should have no trouble passing the healthcare bill, right? Or perhaps this "overwhelming majority"
is a little more divided than you care to admit?

Since when has Congress ever had the exact pulse of the people? Its a representation. IT doesn't change the fact that the PEOPLE want it regardless of if Congress does or does not.

A public service I can support, but having it as the *only* option is not.

Nobody is suggesting that.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:21 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 6:34 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2085 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 30 of 184 (530215)
10-12-2009 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 5:23 PM


I have 2 children who are both healthy, they were not always both healthy.

I have what some people call "gold plated" health care thanks to the job that I am fortunate enough to have.

And keeping my little girl alive and healthy completely drained my family's savings. We planned for her expenses years in advance. If I had happened to be poorer, she may not be alive today.

You are a fucking monster.


If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 5:23 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 6:37 PM Jazzns has responded

  
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