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Author Topic:   Baby Denied Health Care Coverage For Being "Too Fat"
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 46 of 184 (530309)
10-12-2009 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Modulous
10-12-2009 10:02 PM


Actually - that was pretty much how modern insurance started
And then we figured out an even better way!

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Modulous, posted 10-12-2009 10:02 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 184 (530310)
10-12-2009 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 10:58 PM


Jazzns writes:
Because if it is worthwhile to do, it is worthwhile to tax for it.
I didn't expect you to just come out and say it. You think healthcare is worthwhile for your kids, so you want to tax us for it. I suspect you also think feeding and clothing your children is worthwhile, so you seem to want to tax us for that as well. I suspect just about all you do of your own accord you consider worthwhile, so basically you are saying you consider it appropriate for public funds to be used for whatever you think should be done.
You want to be a dictator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 10:58 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Taz, posted 10-12-2009 11:30 PM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 53 by Jazzns, posted 10-13-2009 12:32 AM Phage0070 has not replied
 Message 69 by onifre, posted 10-13-2009 1:53 PM Phage0070 has replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 48 of 184 (530313)
10-12-2009 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 10:28 PM


So far I have heard a lot about why having healthcare for everyone is a great thing and something to be proud of, but nothing about why taxing people to pay for it is a good idea.
The reason is this:
quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare (emphasis added), and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The government of the United States of America was founded by the people of the United States to promote the general welfare of the people of the United States. How can we say we are upholding the ideals of the Constitution when 40 million Americans are uninsured and at least 25 million Americans are underinsured? Is it promoting the general welfare when at least 20% of Americans are without adequate healthcare coverage? When will you say it is a good idea? When 30% are without adequate healthcare coverage? 40%? 50%? When does an American say a person's life is worth more than the price of a single latte?
That's your reason and it's probably the best reason in the world. You do it simply because the life of every person is equally important and just as you expect your fellow citizens to help you out in your time of need, so should you help your fellow citizens out in their time of need. It is upon that principle, that social contract, from which the US was founded and exists to this day. Can you give me any reason more important than that for not allowing healthcare for those who need it to live?
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 10:28 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 12:03 AM Izanagi has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 49 of 184 (530314)
10-12-2009 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 11:05 PM


Phage0070 writes:
I didn't expect you to just come out and say it. You think healthcare is worthwhile for your kids, so you want to tax us for it. I suspect you also think feeding and clothing your children is worthwhile, so you seem to want to tax us for that as well. I suspect just about all you do of your own accord you consider worthwhile, so basically you are saying you consider it appropriate for public funds to be used for whatever you think should be done.
You want to be a dictator.
Phage, I can't remember the last time my house has gone on fire. Why do I have to pay taxes to cover for public fire departments? I can't remember the last time I was robbed. Why do I have to pay taxes to cover for the police departments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 11:05 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 12:08 AM Taz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 184 (530318)
10-13-2009 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jazzns
10-12-2009 8:51 PM


Re: How Very Sad You Are......
You are part of a dying and irrelevant minority in America. The "everyone for himself" crowd. You are pathetic and I feel sorry for someone who can care so little for his fellow human being.
Its hardly dying in the slightest. Most of the people around me are in that crowd. So fuck them and fuck you too. I can take care of myself and my own, with pleasure. Nobody gives a fuck about me, they're all for themselves. Some of them even masquerade as if they are for others, like I suspect you are. I'd much rather just gladly take care of myself and my own, when everyone else is only for themselves anyways. Thanks but no thanks. Stay the fuck away from me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 10-12-2009 8:51 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Jazzns, posted 10-13-2009 12:35 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 68 by onifre, posted 10-13-2009 1:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 184 (530319)
10-13-2009 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Izanagi
10-12-2009 11:25 PM


Izanagi writes:
The government of the United States of America was founded by the people of the United States to promote the general welfare of the people of the United States.
There is always something more you can do to help people. You have to draw the line somewhere, or you will be devoting 100% of everyone's resources toward helping each other.
You might be in support of that, but it tends to interfere with the whole "liberty" part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Izanagi, posted 10-12-2009 11:25 PM Izanagi has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 184 (530321)
10-13-2009 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Taz
10-12-2009 11:30 PM


As I said, there are certain aspects of healtcare that I think are appropriate for the government. To draw a parallel with your examples, it is extremely appropriate for the CDC to try to control potential outbreaks of diseases.
You will note that the fire department's help ends when the fire goes out; they don't help clean up or rebuild. That is what insurance is for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Taz, posted 10-12-2009 11:30 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 12:46 AM Phage0070 has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 53 of 184 (530324)
10-13-2009 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 11:05 PM


I didn't expect you to just come out and say it. You think healthcare is worthwhile for your kids, so you want to tax us for it.
No, health care is worthwhile for everybody.
I suspect you also think feeding and clothing your children is worthwhile, so you seem to want to tax us for that as well.
Yes! As it turns out, society as a whole becomes improved for everyone when we take very good care of our children. It is in fact what separates modern nations from 3rd world nations.
I suspect just about all you do of your own accord you consider worthwhile, so basically you are saying you consider it appropriate for public funds to be used for whatever you think should be done.
You have very amply demonstrated your inability to read in this thread so I don't know why I would try again but here it goes. It is not what I think, it is what the vast majority of me and my fellow citizen think. They just so happen to think that denying basic health care to 4 month old babies because their parents are poor is something that only a sick twisted psychopath would want to do.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 11:05 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 54 of 184 (530325)
10-13-2009 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye
10-13-2009 12:02 AM


Re: How Very Sad You Are......
Its hardly dying in the slightest.
Well pretty much the evidence shows you are wrong.
I can take care of myself and my own, with pleasure. Nobody gives a fuck about me, they're all for themselves. Some of them even masquerade as if they are for others, like I suspect you are. I'd much rather just gladly take care of myself and my own, when everyone else is only for themselves anyways. Thanks but no thanks. Stay the fuck away from me.
I could care less if you throw your lot in with the idiot selfish minority. Thanks for expressing your opinion. You have added nothing to the discussion.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-13-2009 12:02 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5217 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 55 of 184 (530326)
10-13-2009 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phage0070
10-13-2009 12:08 AM


But no one is arguing for healthcare to be solely in the hands of the government. People need basic healthcare to ensure every American can stay healthy so we can reduce the number of people who use the emergency rooms as their primary source of healthcare and who go when their situation reaches a tipping point.
By keeping every American in good health through preventative healthcare, we lower the costs associated with emergency room care. And by providing life-saving healthcare for those who need it, we ensure that no American will have to go bankrupt in order to pay for healthcare. Think about that. The number 4 reason for bankruptcy are medical bills. If our healthcare system is so great, why are people going bankrupt to pay their bills?
But perhaps there is no hope. When a Christian can argue against caring for others, I mourn for America. When Americans can allow their fellow citizens to sink into poverty, I mourn for America. When greed and wealth outweighs the life of a person, I mourn for America.
Maybe you're right. Perhaps we should let greed tear our nation apart as it has torn apart other nations and allow the rich to get richer and the middle class and poor to get poorer. And we will allow it in the name of personal liberty.
But remember, just as the extreme of control is tyranny, the extreme of personal liberty is anarchy.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 12:08 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Jazzns, posted 10-13-2009 12:53 AM Izanagi has replied
 Message 58 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 1:29 AM Izanagi has replied
 Message 70 by onifre, posted 10-13-2009 2:12 PM Izanagi has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 56 of 184 (530327)
10-13-2009 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Izanagi
10-13-2009 12:46 AM


I hope you know that you are my own person hero at this very moment.
The only thing I know how to do when confronted with blatant insanity is to ridicule. You are obviously a much better person than I sir.
*hats off*

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 12:46 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 4:31 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 57 of 184 (530328)
10-13-2009 1:11 AM


And all it took was a national controversy!
Yay! Baby Alex now has health care!
UPDATE: Rocky Mountain Health Plans has now said it will cover Alex Lange, a baby they previously refused to give health insurance because of his weight.
"A recent situation in which we denied coverage to a heavy, yet healthy, infant brought to our
attention a flaw in our underwriting system for approving infants," says Steve ErkenBrack, president and CEO, Rocky Mountain Health Plans. "Because we are a small company dedicated to the people of Colorado, we are pleased to be in a position to act quickly. We have changed our policy, corrected our underwriting guidelines and are working to notify the parents of the infant who we earlier denied."
Read more at: Alex Lange Denied Health Care Coverage: "Your Baby Is Too Fat" | HuffPost Impact
So apparently, all it takes when you get denied is to make a national scandal of the situation. Health care problem solved everyone. Lets all go home now and take a sign of relief.
To be completely fair, the company seems like a pretty good shop. They are a state based non-profit. As much as I personally believe in single payer, I would not be opposed to a system like some countries have with private insurers that are forced to be non-profit for basic plans. They made a mistake and fixed it. Good for them.
Now feel free to wildly speculate on what would have happened if you replace RMHP with UHC.
*makes popcorn*

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Taz, posted 10-13-2009 5:35 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 184 (530330)
10-13-2009 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Izanagi
10-13-2009 12:46 AM


Izanagi writes:
But no one is arguing for healthcare to be solely in the hands of the government.
That is what the opponents of the bill fear, and from looking at it they seem to have a point. The conditions other insurers and providers would have to operate under appear to be prohibitive, and impossible to compete under.
Izanagi writes:
If our healthcare system is so great, why are people going bankrupt to pay their bills?
Because medical bills are a large, unexpected expense that also often puts a person out of work? If they are close to bankruptcy then it seems a likely candidate. Are you saying we should have a safety net to prevent people going bankrupt? Oh wait... we already have one! BANKRUPTCY!
Izanagi writes:
Perhaps we should let greed tear our nation apart as it has torn apart other nations and allow the rich to get richer and the middle class and poor to get poorer.
The rich get richer, and the poor get... richer slower.
Are we really getting to the root of the matter here? I think we are; you think "the rich" owes you. You are greedy, you are practically salivating at the possibility of getting your hands in the pockets of those more successful than you, whatever the reason.
Kindness is helping your fellow man. Liberty makes it a choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 12:46 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by greyseal, posted 10-13-2009 2:25 AM Phage0070 has replied
 Message 63 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 5:21 AM Phage0070 has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3862 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 59 of 184 (530332)
10-13-2009 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phage0070
10-13-2009 1:29 AM


That is what the opponents of the bill fear, and from looking at it they seem to have a point. The conditions other insurers and providers would have to operate under appear to be prohibitive, and impossible to compete under.
Oh heaven forbid that the companies that provide healthcare should focus on actually providing healthcare rather than the almighty dollar.
Down with socialist schemes! Down with public roads! Down with public schools! Down with public fire departments! fascist socialist pigs, the lot of them!
Down with lighthouses! Down with national parks!
How dare the government protect the coastline!
Down with the police! Who needs them!
What a wonderful free world we would all live in then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 1:29 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 3:42 AM greyseal has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4301 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 60 of 184 (530335)
10-13-2009 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Izanagi
10-12-2009 9:23 PM


quote:
That there are areas in the US that have conditions on par to the poorest countries is something to be ashamed of. That we can allow our fellow citizens die just so we can save a few more pennies, is something to be ashamed of. That we can see starving children on the streets looking in dumpsters for food is something to be ashamed of. That we can allow our so-called heroes, police and firefighters and all those citizens who risked their lives after the attacks of 9/11, be denied treatment for the debilitating conditions that they acquired in service of their fellow Americans is something to be ashamed of. That we can allow our men and women in uniform to return from serving our country in combat, be honorably discharged, and be summarily forgotten is something to be ashamed of.
Oh, I've got tears in my eyes. Izanagi for President!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Izanagi, posted 10-12-2009 9:23 PM Izanagi has not replied

  
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