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Author Topic:   Baby Denied Health Care Coverage For Being "Too Fat"
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 184 (530340)
10-13-2009 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by greyseal
10-13-2009 2:25 AM


greyseal writes:
Oh heaven forbid that the companies that provide healthcare should focus on actually providing healthcare rather than the almighty dollar.
People don't make companies to provide services or products, they make companies to make money. People don't buy stock in companies so the companies can make products or provide services, they buy stock so they can get a return on their money.
McDonalds does not make food because they want you to have food, and charge you because they have to. They make food because they can charge you for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by greyseal, posted 10-13-2009 2:25 AM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by greyseal, posted 10-13-2009 6:06 AM Phage0070 has not replied
 Message 66 by Perdition, posted 10-13-2009 12:16 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 62 of 184 (530345)
10-13-2009 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jazzns
10-13-2009 12:53 AM


Thank you for the sentiment, but I think you deserve the credit for bringing what happened to baby Alex to light. Sometimes it is easy to forget that many of the people who suffer from our healthcare system are people who haven't done anything to deserve such heartless treatment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jazzns, posted 10-13-2009 12:53 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


(1)
Message 63 of 184 (530352)
10-13-2009 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phage0070
10-13-2009 1:29 AM


The conditions other insurers and providers would have to operate under appear to be prohibitive, and impossible to compete under.
And of course, our public universities are why Harvard is now out of business.
Because medical bills are a large, unexpected expense that also often puts a person out of work?
Isn't that the point. They are a large, unexpected expense. Medical bills can't be planned for and they often require huge amounts of money. A regular doctor's visit requires more money than what many families can afford. Even a simple prescription for eyeglasses can run a couple a hundred dollars. That's why Remote Area Medical, an organization created to help those in Third World countries get the medical care they need, go to various places in America to treat people who otherwise would have no recourse for medical care, places from Los Angeles to Virginia. Is that something to be proud of, that an organization created to bring medical care to Third World countries has to come to the US?
Are you saying we should have a safety net to prevent people going bankrupt? Oh wait... we already have one! BANKRUPTCY!
Then you don't know what it's like to go through bankruptcy. It is not a safety net. Bankruptcy is rock bottom. Not many people go out of their way to want to declare bankruptcy. That's why many families would rather struggle with bills and find a way through than go bankrupt. It's because bankruptcy isn't the solution to a person's financial troubles - more often than not, it can have consequences for years after. A person who declares bankruptcy has it on their financial record, so it becomes difficult for them to establish a good line of credit, it is more difficult to take out a mortgage, finding a job might be harder with a bad credit record, a person may still be required to pay back the debts by having their wages garnished are only some of the few consequences of declaring bankruptcy. That's why it is a terrible thing to do. For you to say it is a safety net or even to allow someone to go through something like that is reprehensible.
The rich get richer, and the poor get... richer slower.
Are we really getting to the root of the matter here? I think we are; you think "the rich" owes you. You are greedy, you are practically salivating at the possibility of getting your hands in the pockets of those more successful than you, whatever the reason.
What you don't seem to realize is that the middle and lower class are not getting richer.
Currently, the top 7% account for a third of all income. The share of the total earned income of the upper middle class is declining. Median household income has barely kept pace with inflation. Income inequality is growing. The US Gini Index is highest of all industrialized nations. And upward mobility is a dream of the past.
Some economists say that a rising tides raises all boats. The problem is, as you said, limited resources. As the rich take more of the pie, there is less pie to go around to the rest of America. Wealth, I am afraid to say, is a zero-sum game. There are going to be winners and there will be losers. The question is how we deal with this as a society. Do we allow the wealthy to continue to increase their share of the pie at the cost of the rest of the country's ability to make a living. Do we continue to suffer this delusion that America is still the land of opportunity when it is harder than ever to rise from the ranks of the poor? Do we continue to believe that somehow things will work out by themselves because someone says that the wealth will trickle down to the rest of the people?
Or do you wake up and realize that America is facing a serious problem. The wealthy have the money, they control the reins of the country. They are the ones with the money and time to lobby Congress. They were the ones who benefited most from Bush's tax cuts. Them and corporations. And every time another piece of the pie goes to the rich, every other American gets less.
So yes, maybe I am greedy. Maybe I am greedy because I want to survive, to not worry about whether my paycheck will cover my expenses, to know whether I can afford to see a doctor for an illness.
But I am not greedier than those at the top who only look to see how they can wring more money from the American people. Those people who have enough money for themselves but constantly want more and more. Those are, in my opinion, the greediest people of all.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 1:29 AM Phage0070 has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3862 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 64 of 184 (530355)
10-13-2009 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phage0070
10-13-2009 3:42 AM


McDonalds does not make food because they want you to have food, and charge you because they have to. They make food because they can charge you for it.
McDonalds is entirely different from the ER and your GP. I'm surprised you don't get it. The rest of the world gets it.
Why should people who go to work on foot pay for public roads they don't use?
Why should people who don't care about their house burning down pay for the fire department?
Why should people who don't own boats pay for the coast guard?
Why should people who don't live on the border pay for manning the mexican and canadian borders?
I assume you use no public libraries, use no public schools, use no public parks, use no public roads, use no public healthcare, use no public amenities (power, water), use no public services (fire, police) - right?
The rest of the western world thinks healthcare belongs in the same place as schools, fire departments, police and so on.
Since I learnt of the consequences of having such a ludicrous healthcare system as the US, I thank my lucky stars that I live in a country with a sane healthcare system.
We don't have people going bankrupt because they broke their leg. We don't have people getting into decades of debt because they had a baby. We don't have people waiting until they're almost dead to go to the doctor because they'd rather suffer with a burst appendix than suffer bankruptcy.
Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 3:42 AM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 65 of 184 (530413)
10-13-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Izanagi
10-12-2009 10:11 PM


But I think if the fire departments today were run like the health insurance companies, then there would be a claims department that would try to find ways of justifying not putting out a fire and old houses would have a higher risk of fire and therefore wouldn't be insured.
Isn't it good our fire departments aren't run like insurance companies?
Yes. It is good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Izanagi, posted 10-12-2009 10:11 PM Izanagi has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2009 12:21 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 66 of 184 (530420)
10-13-2009 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phage0070
10-13-2009 3:42 AM


This is an instance where the right thing to do is also the cost effective thing to do. It is far cheaper for a person to go get a check-up and start treating anything that comes up when it's early, rather than waiting until it gets too bad to suffer through, and the poor flood the emergency rooms and can't pay. The population of the country already pays for the health care of the poor because Hospitals get tax money to cover people who can't pay for their emergency care. The current system also has the added side effect of clogging those emergency rooms so that if you, and other rich people, actually have an emergency, they'll be forced to wait at the very doors of the hospital while the guy with diabetes gets his leg amputated because he couldn't afford to get the check up ten years ago that would have caught the diabetes and helped him combat it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 3:42 AM Phage0070 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 67 of 184 (530421)
10-13-2009 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Modulous
10-13-2009 11:41 AM


A general response to those opposed to Universal Health Care
Gee, it must be nice to afford health care. Oh, wait, your employer provides it? What happens when you lose your job and get sick? Tough shit. Mend that broken leg yourself, right?
I was without a job for 6 months, then picked up a job as a temp/contractor. I have worked there for a little over a year now. The company I work for (International Truck and Engine) is in a hiring freeze due to impending outsourcing of the Data Center in which I work. I have 3 kids. My "temp agency"(they call me a contractor) does not provide health care, nor can I obtain it through the company I work for since I am not technically an employee. I make too much for Badger Care. I also have pretty bad asthma and severe heartburn.
You wanna know where I get medicine for asthma? My girlfriend. I turn in here scripts for albuterol and advair because I cant fucking afford it. She, on the other hand, being a single mother with no job, gets badger care, as does here daughter. I have no problem with that.
I don't expect anyone to give two fucks about me or my family except me or my family. I just wanted to put it out there. I would gladly pay a portion of my income for everyone to have sufficient health care because I have seen both of my grandmothers die from cancer and I could not imagine seeing that had my one grandfather not worked for Chrysler and the other for Green Giant, both with stellar health care.
I can also see where the opposition comes from. However, it seems as though the only people who oppose, already HAVE health care and can't imagine not having it. You take your ability to pay for it for granted. To you I say: go shop for private health care where you would pay the monthly out of pocket.
Take this with a grain of salt. Just think about those less fortunate for once. Everyone deserves a chance for a healthy life.
{ABE} oops, i meant a general reply, not a reply to Mod.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 68 of 184 (530439)
10-13-2009 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye
10-13-2009 12:02 AM


Maybe, but lets hope you can always do that
So fuck them and fuck you too. I can take care of myself and my own, with pleasure.
For now, but lets hope you never find yourself in a situation where you can't.
This is reminds me of the pro-life people, who are only pro-life till they get the wrong chick pregnant, then all of a sudden they become pro-choice (even if they don't come out and say it).
Hell, I suspect in some instances they'd abort the baby themselves - like say if a young white girl from a rich family suddenly becomes pregnant by the young handsome well endowed hispanic that cuts the family's grass. How long do you think that innocent Christian fetus will live for?
It's easy to stand on one side of an argument when you feel it doesn't involve you, until it does, then eye's get open wide and minds change immediately.
Some of them even masquerade as if they are for others, like I suspect you are. I'd much rather just gladly take care of myself and my own, when everyone else is only for themselves anyways.
This is a fair point. But you say that while you are able to do so. Sadly, many run into situations where they just can't help themselves anymore. It's a sad day when "Americans" would turn their backs on fellow "patriots" who've fallen on hard times.
Thanks but no thanks. Stay the fuck away from me.
Lets hope you never need it, bro.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-13-2009 12:02 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by greyseal, posted 10-13-2009 4:23 PM onifre has replied
 Message 80 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-14-2009 10:00 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 69 of 184 (530440)
10-13-2009 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phage0070
10-12-2009 11:05 PM


I suspect just about all you do of your own accord you consider worthwhile, so basically you are saying you consider it appropriate for public funds to be used for whatever you think should be done.
Would you rather public funds be stolen by government agencies, lobbyist, politicians, greedy CEO's, etc... or, would you rather it be funneled back into the community from which it came from?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phage0070, posted 10-12-2009 11:05 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 3:32 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 70 of 184 (530445)
10-13-2009 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Izanagi
10-13-2009 12:46 AM


Great posts, but what do you suggest...
People need basic healthcare to ensure every American can stay healthy so we can reduce the number of people who use the emergency rooms as their primary source of healthcare and who go when their situation reaches a tipping point.
So what kind of plan is being suggested that some how reduces the cost of medical bills? Obama's plan (as vague as it may be) actually benefits (in the long run) the Pharm companies who are responsible for the high prices for medical bills.
By keeping every American in good health through preventative healthcare, we lower the costs associated with emergency room care.
Actually, it really doesn't. By giving everyone healthcare, you actually increase the revenue for the Pharm industries. It's simple - more people insured, more people going to the doctor, more people buying medicine, more people feeding the Pharm companies.
What that does is increase the demand for medicine, making the Pharm companies responsible for making more medicine as the demand increases - supply -vs- demand - and now the cost increases due to more demand for medicine because now EVERYONE has healthcare. A demand that wasn't there before everyone had healthcare.
Since the Pharm industry has a strong hold on where medicine is bought, they control the pricing of the drugs and the increase in demand will drive the prices up - Which will drive the cost of medical bills up - Which will drive the cost to insure people up - And if we tax payers are covering the cost, guess who has to cover that increase?
I'm not saying some universal healthcare plan isn't needed, but all I see is a lot of fancy words and the illusion of caring, but no results or potential results to the crisis at hand.
But perhaps there is no hope. When a Christian can argue against caring for others, I mourn for America. When Americans can allow their fellow citizens to sink into poverty, I mourn for America. When greed and wealth outweighs the life of a person, I mourn for America.
Are you suggesting we need "Change"...?
Maybe you're right. Perhaps we should let greed tear our nation apart as it has torn apart other nations and allow the rich to get richer and the middle class and poor to get poorer.
No "side" as of yet has suggested a plan that removes greed from the equation.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 12:46 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 11:57 PM onifre has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 184 (530453)
10-13-2009 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by onifre
10-13-2009 1:53 PM


onifre writes:
Would you rather public funds be stolen by government agencies, lobbyist, politicians, greedy CEO's, etc... or, would you rather it be funneled back into the community from which it came from?
I would prefer it not be taken in the first place, is that too much to ask?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by onifre, posted 10-13-2009 1:53 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2009 3:44 PM Phage0070 has not replied
 Message 76 by onifre, posted 10-13-2009 4:41 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 72 of 184 (530458)
10-13-2009 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phage0070
10-13-2009 3:32 PM


How do you suppose these services should be funded then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Phage0070, posted 10-13-2009 3:32 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Son
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 73 of 184 (530459)
10-13-2009 3:46 PM


Healthcare cost
I wonder, in this debate, why noone bought up this:
Total Health Expenditures as Percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) 2000-2005 - Country Rankings
which shows that U.S healthcare is amongst the most expensive in the world relative to GDP.
This life expectancy
List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia
Cost per capita (pdf you have to scroll down a bit though):
http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf
To resume the links, despite the fact that the datas I have shown are not of exactly of the same periods, there hasn't been big changes in healthcare in the U.S. so I think it's still revelant. I couldn't track down better data (no time I will try tomorrow).
It still clearly shows that U.S healthcare cost is way more expensive than "socialized" healthcare but for worse results. I may understand that you would prefer another system from a public one but how can you justify keeping the one the U.S. has right now?
It costs you more and gives you less benefits.
Notice that for efficiency, U.S scores poorly on life expectancy AND infant mortality.
You also need to note that for any entreprises, healthcare cost is always here even if it isn't in the form of taxes, they either need to pay their employees healthcare (something which small business can't do), or the consequences of it by having their employees less efficient because of a condition.
It is on average costlier in U.S. system to pay for healthcare, the fact that you are not paying most of it through taxes doesn't mean you are not paying for it and it is still a burden whether you pay through private or public insurance.
Edited by Son, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by greyseal, posted 10-13-2009 4:17 PM Son has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3862 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 74 of 184 (530465)
10-13-2009 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Son
10-13-2009 3:46 PM


Re: Healthcare cost
Nobody brought up those conclusions because those who don't believe them refuse to, and those who do don't think it's necessary.
But thank you for very graphically showing with raw, unbiased statistics, just what it means to have non-socialist medicine where the driving force behind health isn't health, but the dollar.
For an update to those charts, in the last few years things have only gotten worse in the USA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Son, posted 10-13-2009 3:46 PM Son has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3862 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 75 of 184 (530469)
10-13-2009 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by onifre
10-13-2009 1:50 PM


Re: Maybe, but lets hope you can always do that
onifre, i think you should read this
Telnet Communications - High Speed Internet & Home Phone Solutions
What it tells is pretty disgusting.
Off-topic, perhaps, but pertinent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by onifre, posted 10-13-2009 1:50 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by onifre, posted 10-14-2009 12:50 AM greyseal has not replied

  
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