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Author Topic:   MRSA - would you?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 3 of 68 (530536)
10-14-2009 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blzebub
10-13-2009 3:57 PM


Presumably they'd accept that it existed but refuse to admit that it evolved. As with everything else.
Which leads to a second question --- would a creationist finish his course of antibiotics like you're meant to to stop superbugs from evolving, or stop as soon as he felt better like an antisocial idiot?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 68 (530577)
10-14-2009 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by slevesque
10-14-2009 2:23 AM


For my part, and I think this is the common view amongst creationists, I never rejected the fact that there is change over time within a given population of anything, including bacteria.
But I hope you will agree that this does not equate to common ancestry evolution, which is what creationists reject.
Except that to bolster their claim, practically all of them seem obliged to pretend that there are no such things as beneficial mutations. Which would include bacteria exposed to antibiotics evolving antibiotic resistance.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 29 of 68 (530580)
10-14-2009 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by slevesque
10-14-2009 4:27 AM


The reason they draw a line is because they recognize that their is a difference between micro and macro evolution:
micro-evolution is certainly possible with only a downward trend to the information content. Now, I know full well that by using the word 'information' this will generate the usual responses to it. This is not my intention though, and don't be frustrated if I don't answer to them in order to keep it on topic. All I want to show is that their is a difference between micro and macro.
On the other hand, macro is impossible without an increase in information. New organs, new proteins, etc.
Or, of course, they resort to vaguer terms altogether.
Do R-plasmids contain "information"?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by slevesque, posted 10-14-2009 5:19 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 30 of 68 (530581)
10-14-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by slevesque
10-14-2009 5:09 AM


Multiple questions can be asked: Did the antibiotic resistance already exist in the bacteria population ?
See? Now you're also questioning the existence of that "micro-evolution" that you claim doesn't really count anyway. Belt-and-braces denial.
If I break the key in the lock, it may prevent burgglers from picking the lock to enter my house, but it is still inconvenient, and becomes an advantage only when there really are burglers outside.
And the fact that my lineage evolved from monkeys, and so is different from them, will be darn inconvenient for me if I ever want to leap from treetop to treetop in the rainforest canopy.

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 Message 35 by slevesque, posted 10-14-2009 5:26 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 32 of 68 (530583)
10-14-2009 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
10-14-2009 5:06 AM


Re: Bacteria
Are you saying the bacteria by becoming resistant to an antibiotic is macro evolution?
If so has it ceased to be a bacteria?
Or is it just an antibiotic resistant bacteria?
It's a bacterium the lineage of which has evolved by becoming genetically resistant to an antibiotic.
If that is the case then it only adapted to its enviroment.
Through genetic changes to its lineage, which is the definition of evolution.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 36 of 68 (530590)
10-14-2009 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by slevesque
10-14-2009 5:19 AM


The point I was trying to have stand out was that there is a theoretical difference between micro and macro evolution on the genetic level.
And the theoretical difference is that macroevolution is lots of microevolution.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 37 of 68 (530591)
10-14-2009 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by slevesque
10-14-2009 5:26 AM


This is because we went from a general case to a special case.
Any special case in particular, or just a special case in general?
There certainly are cases where the mutation was not present in the population, and so it is a fact that it does happen, with which I have no problem.
Good.
I probably paused for a good 5minutes trying to find a better term then 'inconvenient', but in the end couldn't find one. I do hope that the idea I was trying to express was rightfully understood.
Obviously I understood it. That's why I dismissed it.
Any evolutionary change which makes a lineage better adapted to one environment than another will most likely make it worse adapted to the other than the one. If it is ever life or death to me to be able to breathe underwater, then I can curse my luck that I'm not a lobe-finned fish. Not being a fish would be inconvenient. On the other hand, if I became a lobe-finned fish right now, I'd suffocate. That too would be inconvenient. Evolution has adapted my lineage to the environment that I actually live in. As a direct consequence, I am no longer well-adapted to the environment that my ancestors lived in but I don't. That's how it works. No-one gets to be a human and a fish, there's always a trade-off.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 68 (530597)
10-14-2009 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by slevesque
10-14-2009 6:10 AM


A special case in general.
I'd mock you, but the challenge is gone.
As soon as such or such an example is being looked at, we need to verify if the antibiotic resistance wasn't already part of the genome of the population.
Sure, and it is easy to verify in specific cases that is wasn't.
Why make a big deal about this? You admit that it can happen, you admit that it has happened, but you want to submit a caveat that has nothing to do with either of those propositions.
I'll take another example. On windy islands, it is beneficial for beetles to be unable to fly. And so if I bring a new flying beetle species, given enough time one of the individuals will have a mutation which will disable it's capacity to fly. Relatively speaking, this will be done rather quickly, since there are many mutations that can give this result. And so if the species stays there long enough, it will become fixed in the population and so every single beetle will have it, which means the previous version of the genome no longer exists in the population.
OK so far. That's the theory of evolution.
Now at this stage, I remove them from the island and put them back on another windless island. Here, being able to fly would be an advantage again. But how many mutations will be able to give that characteristic back ? Only one, the inverse of the previous.
No.
In fact, it is more likely that a second flight-inhibiting mutation gets in the population through genetic drift
Show your working.
and if this is to happen, then the capacity to fly is by all accounts lost forever for this population
No.
Why did you say "by all accounts"?
Why is this ? Because it is far more easier to destroy something than to improve something. Since natural selection depends on the environment, it gives us the wrong impression that a specific mutation/change value is only relative to it's environment. But it isn't, it still has an intrisect 'destructive' or 'constructive' value (If I can use those terms)
That was just odd.
Not all changes are created equal, and in fact it is much more easier to tumble down mount improbable then to climb up it.
For a single act of genetic transmission from father to son, yes. For the lineage, no. Natural selection means that it has to "climb Mount Improbable". That's what it does.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 56 of 68 (530718)
10-14-2009 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
10-14-2009 12:02 PM


Re: Drawning a line
Izanagi, I have been here since March 2007. You can search my profile threads I have participated in and you will never find one, NOT ONE where I called ID science. In fact you will find quite the opposite.
I think those that promote such are delusional, being deluded by Satan.
The ID people are deluded by Satan?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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