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Author Topic:   MRSA - would you?
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 1 of 68 (530462)
10-13-2009 3:57 PM


I often see creationists and the "ID" people complaining bitterly about lack of evolution in the world around us - you know the sort of thing. "I'll accept evolution if a chimp gives birth to a human baby". Well, that would be extraordinary, I admit, and I might even think about believing in god if it ever happened, but I digress.
There are obvious evolutionary changes going on all around us, and they make front-page news. I refer, of course, to the "germs", the grubbiest of god's creatures, which, even as I type, are engaged in a genetic arms race against pharmaceutical companies, or at least their antibiotics.
Probably the best-known of these is MRSA, the methicillin-resistant Staph. aureus, but there are many other examples.
Now, we all know about this bacterium, but my question is this: would a creationist who was suffering from an MRSA infection insist on receiving conventional (ineffective, Biblical??) antibiotic treatment for SA, or would they accept that SA has evolved into MRSA, and go for the correct antibiotic?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 4 by slevesque, posted 10-14-2009 2:23 AM Blzebub has replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 5 of 68 (530543)
10-14-2009 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by slevesque
10-14-2009 2:23 AM


For my part, and I think this is the common view amongst creationists, I never rejected the fact that there is change over time within a given population of anything, including bacteria.
Great! This process is known as "Evolution". We may be getting somewhere.
But I hope you will agree that this does not equate to common ancestry evolution, which is what creationists reject.
Yes, I agree. But DNA sequencing proves beyond any doubt that all life on Earth does have a common ancestor. All living creatures are related to each other. Isn't that an exciting and wonderful fact?

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 Message 6 by slevesque, posted 10-14-2009 3:20 AM Blzebub has replied
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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 8 of 68 (530552)
10-14-2009 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by slevesque
10-14-2009 3:20 AM


As for the specific reasoning you used, similar DNA sequences is certainly a fact, but common ancestry is not the only way option because of this. This would also be expected between creatures that would have been created by the same person.
I don't think you understand, so I'll say it again: DNA sequencing proves beyond any doubt whatsoever that all life has one common ancestor. Common ancestry IS the only way.
Now that we know this extraordinary fact, there is no need to cling to a Bronze-Age hypothesis which was written in a Bronze-Age book. We have the correct explanation.

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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 15 of 68 (530561)
10-14-2009 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by slevesque
10-14-2009 3:40 AM


Only problem is, I disagree that common ancestry is the only option, because as I have said a common designer can easily account for genetic similarity.
Forgive me, but which part of "proves beyond any doubt" do you not understand?
You seem to be either ignoring or opposing the DNA evidence. Which?

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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 48 of 68 (530642)
10-14-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by slevesque
10-14-2009 5:09 AM


What was the exact mutation that produced the resistance ? As an example, for an antibiotic to infect a bacteria, it has to get insdie the cell. This is done by on of the types of transporting protein in the membrane, which usually transports nutriments. So if the antibiotic chemically ressembles nutriment A, then the protein transporting A will also transport the antiobiotic. If, by a mutation, the protein transporter becomes none-functional, then the bacteria will become resistant to the antibiotic, but this will have been done through a loss of a function, that to be able to transport nutriment A in the cell.
Why don't you find out before you start typing this gibberish?
It isn't as simplistic as resistance to antibiotic = increase in information.
Yes it is, actually!
The mechanism is that an alternative penicillin binding protein (PBP2a), is produced in addition to the "normal" penicillin binding proteins. The protein is encoded by the mecA gene, and because PBP2a is not inhibited by antibiotics such as flucloxacillin the cell continues to synthesise peptidoglycan and hence has a structurally sound cell wall.
Note that there is no loss of function, no loss of information. The opposite is true: the bacterium has evolved the ability to survive flucloxacillin therapy, by acquiring a new gene (extra "information"). MRSA flourishes, and is now a prominent cause of morbidity & mortality in humans.

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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 51 of 68 (530683)
10-14-2009 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
10-14-2009 12:35 PM


Re: Bacteria
Give me scientific evidence of where any critter ceased to be that critter and became a totally different critter.
Define "totally different". Humans separated from chimps about 6 million years ago. We had a common ancestor. I don't think we can say we are "totally different" from chimps, nor any other creatures, however, as all living things are related to one another, albeit distantly for the most part.
But this thread is about one kind of "critter", Staph. aureus, becoming MRSA, which is, I guess, a different kind of "critter".

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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 54 of 68 (530711)
10-14-2009 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICANT
10-14-2009 2:52 PM


Re: Bacteria
Can you provide verifiable scientific evidence of this common ancestor?
Define "verifiable". Have you done any reading on this subject? If so, please indicate what difficulties you have encountered.
But they are both the same type of critter as they are bacteria just different versions. Like a Ford car and a Chevrolet car. They are very different but both are a car.
Well done. All critters are the same, just different versions. If you understand that, you understand evolution and common ancestry. That's why I asked you what you meant by "totally different".

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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 66 of 68 (531287)
10-16-2009 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Perdition
10-16-2009 6:17 PM


Re: directed transpermia?
oops
Edited by Blzebub, : No reason given.

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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5268 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 67 of 68 (531288)
10-16-2009 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by slevesque
10-16-2009 6:37 PM


Re: directed transpermia?
I can't believe you can come back to this thread and type in yet more nonsense, this time about "aliens" (!!), without even the slightest acknowledgement of my reply (post 48) to this previous balderdash of yours:
What was the exact mutation that produced the resistance ? As an example, for an antibiotic to infect a bacteria, it has to get insdie the cell. This is done by on of the types of transporting protein in the membrane, which usually transports nutriments. So if the antibiotic chemically ressembles nutriment A, then the protein transporting A will also transport the antiobiotic. If, by a mutation, the protein transporter becomes none-functional, then the bacteria will become resistant to the antibiotic, but this will have been done through a loss of a function, that to be able to transport nutriment A in the cell.
Are you a random word generator? Have you no shame?

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