Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment

Hi Jazzns. Greetings to you and old pro and con friends at EvC. Having been studiously into the Biblical prophecies for the past 60 plus years, since a youth and presently being an active member of a Christian prophecy board, perhaps I may be able to contribute some substantive input to the topic.What I've learned about fulfilled prophecy is that completion of a given prophecy such as the 10 horned beast of Daniel progress to complete fulfillment. Progressive stages of fulfillment are misconstrued by some as either contemporaneous or the first of a double fulfillment.Daniel 7 which depicts a 10 horned beast as 10 kings presiding over a world class empire. Evidence that this did not have a contemporaneous fulfillment is as follows:1. We read in Daniel 12:4 that Daniel is told to "shut up the words and seal up book, even to the time of the end; many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase." (speaking of the end times when complete fulfillment is to be expected.)2. Now go to the last book of the Bible which covers the end time prophecies. Check out Revelation 13 and Rev. 17. Daniel 7, Rev 13 and Rev 17 are the three chapters, one in the OT and the other two in the NT which specifically deal with a global class ten horned kingdom of ten kings depicted as a beast kingdom.3. Open your notepad and type in all of the data given by the prophet Daniel in chapter 7. Then type in all of the data given in both chapters, Rev 13 and 17 relative to the 10 horned beast.4. You will discover the following:
a. Both OT and NT prophecies state that this beast will make war with and/or wear out the saints of God.
b. Both OT and NT propecies depict this beast kingdom as world class, having authority and power globally.
c. The books in which both OT and NT prophecies are covered depict an end time messianic kingdom of God on earth relative to Israel.
d. All corroborating prophets as well as Jesus/messiah prophesy a restored nation of Israel to be in place for the time of fulfillment.There are other corroborating scriptures and historical events which could be cited to support end time fulfillment of Daniel's remarkable prophecy.Another example of progressive fulfillment is the Abrahamic Covenant prophecy in the book of Genesis which prophesies that Abraham's decendents will eventually become a messianic kingdom in the land of Caanan which God was to give to him and his seed.Needless to remind all that numerous times as the fulfillment awaited fulfillment, it appeard that the nation of Israel was finished forever. Lo and behold, after all of the ins and outs of the land, the last one ongoing for over 19 centuries, this scattered people called Jews miraculously end up smack dad back where God promised Abraham they would end up.Was each return of the Jews one of a double, tripple or quadrubble fulfillment? Of course not. These were all progressive stages of the ultimate fulfillment which is about to emerge upon the planet, as the nations are drawn to battle (Armageddon) into the region [i]just as so many of the prophets declared so many centuries ago. Praise Jehovah, god of the Bible, who's declarations all eventually come to fulfillment in his own time. ABE: Mmmm, I just noticed that this message, the first since my [i]sabatical[i] is my 6,666th since becoming a member, having been active for about 6 years. There's something escatological about that number six, which Biblcally is the number of man, but never worry. Antichrist has only three sixes. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix Title and indicate ABE

Perhaps the reason is that there are none as per the reasons I have itemized. The progression of complete fulfillment is being miss-construed by some as alleged double fullments when in fact ultimate fulfillment was God's purpose for the prophecy in the first place.It would make no sense for complete fulfillment void of progressive events leading up to ultimate end time fulfillment relative to the prophecies of any of the end time prophets.Why do you think Daniel was inspired to announce the sealing up of his prophecy until the end times in which ultimate fulfillment would occur? Why do you think John the Revelator, centuries later after the birth of Jesus/messiah essentially unsealed the prophecy and elaborated on the details of ultimate fulfillment in chapters 13 and 17 relative to Daniel's 10 horned beast?As with all Biblical prophecy, corroborative data from all relative prophecies must be considered in determination of when fulfillment is to be expected.Why do you think the phenomenon is being observed of Israel (all the while surrounded by the enemy)being restored as Jesus and the OT prophets declared, corroborated by the simultaneous movement of the armies of the world into the region as prophesied by Zacheriah, Zephaniah, Ezekiel, Isaiah and others at a time when a new world global order/empire emerges indicative of ultimate fulfillment? There is no double fulfillment nor should anyone expect any when in fact, the prophecy was to be sealed until the appointed end time to be determined by God who inspired the prophets.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

In order to determine what God's ultimate purpose for a given prophecy, one must have a working knowledge of God's plan for the ages. The most significant clue as to the ultimate purpose of Daniel's prophecies, for example, is the little statement in the last chapter, 12:4 where Daniel is instructed to shut up the words of his prophecy and seal the book until the end time.As time goes from generation to generation, century to century, history passes and new insight on the end time prophecies is available.Daniel's prophecies itemized the world class kingdoms which would rise and fall before the end time when a messianic power would become the final one. Corroborating the prophets, it becomes clear that the sign for the ultimate fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies would be a restoration of the nation of Israel, as one nation, i.e not two divided kingdoms such as was the contemporary situation. (See Ezekiel, chapters 36-39 for the most complete sequential prophecy of the restoration and end time events which would come to pass for the ultimate fulfillment prophecies relative to the nation of Israel.) This is indicative that the ultimate end time fulfillment of Daniel, of the Genesis Abrahamic covenant/prophecy in Genesis and of Ezekiel and others relative to the Israeli messianic kingdom are becoming realized.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

More significant than anything Jesus said, I have cited the reference to Daniel's 10 horned beast kingdom as the latter day global empire depicted by the prophet John in the book of futures and end time which Daniel aluded to in chapter 12, that his prophecy would be sealed/hidden until the end times. Here we are 2500 to 2700 years downstream with Israel back in place and all of the corroborating stuff relative to Daniel coming into focus.Daniel, in fact, interpreted Nebucadnezzar's dream and had a couple of other visions which corroborate with his 10 horned beast vision, all of which depict the end time messianic kingdom more or less as the end of Gentile world empires.You, nor any of the other participants in this thread appear to be interested in this significant data which addresses your OP with evidence.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Apologetics is useless void of reasoning, so come, let us reason together.In order to determine whether Daniel's prophecies have a double interpretation one must have a working knowledge of the prophecies in question.His first prophecy was when he interpreted Neb's dream He revealed the dream and gave the precise interpretation. The interpretation concluded with the stone cut without hands striking the feet of the image and pulverizing the whole thing which was the succession of world empires down to the 10 toes (corroborating with the 10 horns of the later vision of the beast. This stone was none other than Jesus who at his coming second advent will pulverized the armies of the world and set become the great mountain/ruler of the world.By the same corroborating token, Daniel's 10 horned beast also depicted the succession of world empires down to the 10 horns/kings, which would be the final global empire before the 2nd advent of Jesus.How do we know when to begin looking and expecting these end time events? By looking for any corroborating events in the prophecies of Daniel and the other prophets of the OT. They all agree that the messiah which was to rule the world would be a Jew and that he would return to Jerusalem which was to be his capitol and that he was to be of the lineage of David. For that to happen there must be a nation of Israel for this event.The reason Revelation is so important to understand the intent of Daniel's prophecies is that more data is learned from John the revelator.1. We learn in chapter 13 that the 10 horned beast will be global just like the 10 horned beast of Daniel. Daniel said the "Most High"/messian would destroy the beast kingdom an it would be given to the his people/saints.
2. We read in Daniel chapter 7 that the 10 horned beast will make war with the saints and persecute them. This is corroborated by Revelation 13 where the 10 horned beast makes war with the saints of Jesus and overcomes them.
3. We learn in both Daniel's prophecy and John's prophect that messiah will take the global kingdom from the Gentiles and he along with his saints/Christians will rule the planet from there on. Never again in both prophecies will Gentile kingdom arise.
4. We learn in John's prophecy that this kingdom will be at a time when there will be a new global monetary system which the world has never known of until our time; i.e. a global monetary system of marks and numbers. This was all impossible until modern tech made it possible.
5. We also learn from John's prohecies that there will be technology which will allow for all of the nations, tribes and tongues of the world to view an event which happens in one place such as the Mystery Babylon burning up in one hour and of two individuals who lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem. These are found in chapter 11 and 18.I've said all of the above to say this: None of the above happened as some kind of double fulfillment of the major prophecies of Daniel in the time of Antiochus. Logic and reasoning require that when Daniel was instructed to shut up the words of his prophecy and seal the book until the end time, he was alluding to a time when the above events would be observed upon earth. Logic and reasoning observes nothing in the time of Antiochus that comes close to fulfilling all of the data given relative to Daniel's prophecies or of the later prophecies of John, both of which are corroborated by a host of other major OT prophets and of Jesus himself who prophesied that Gentile rule would end when Jerusalem came back into the hands of regathered Jews at a time when the nation of Israel was restored.Conclusion: There is no double fulfillment to the major prophecies of the OT, particularly Daniel, since that is the focus of our discussion.BTW, I'm not sure what you meant relative to JW, but for the record, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness in case you got that impression. I'm an undenominationally minded evangelical, member of no church but currently active in an evangelical Seventh Day Baptist church.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

A large portion of this thread has been about speculative interpretations as to what two chapters; 11 and 12, the most ambiguous chapters of Daniel's book say and mean and as to whether they may possibly convey some sort of double fulfillment. It appears that these two ambiguous chapters are about all of the hope for proponents of double fulfillment offering any argument at all for double fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies.The first ten chapters (5/6th) of Daniels prophecies are the most significant and the most corroborated by other major prophets in the Bible, yet little has been covered on the greater part of Daniel in this thread.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Thank you kindly, Anglagard. It's nice to be back among EvC friends as a representive of the minority POV.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

So 5/6th of the book is forshadowing? Forshadowing what? Could you elaborate?

';lkj1. The only cohesiveness of Daniel is that it is a book prophesying the whole history of the world Gentile empires all the way up until the end of the Gentile age until the messianic kingdom of God to be set up in Israel, i.e. the end time. It is a cohesive prophecy of the major empires of world history of the planet that will exist. So no, I am in no way abandoning the cohesiveness of the the book.You are attempting to squeeze the whole history of the world into an empire which not only does injustice to the book but fails to address the cohesiveness of Daniel with all of the other prophets of the Bible. Your interpretation is that of a novice who has no clue regarding the cohesiveness of the major prophets of the Bible including John the revelator of the NT.2. There's a whole lot more in Daniel than Antiohus and the Greek empire. You can't just sweep all of the other pertinent info under the proverbial rug if you aspire to knowledge of the truth relative to the whole book.What do you do with the verses in the horn chapter, chapter 7 where the saints of the most high take over after the horned beast's empire is taken by the messiah whose saints rule with messiah from then on forever as long as the earth remains. This is all corroborated by Daniel's other visions which prophesy the end of Gentile rule and messianc rule. None of this happened after the Greek empire, nor has it happened yet proving that there were to be other empires arise as prophesied by Daniel and John before the end comes relative to the latter day restoration of the nation of Israel which we have witnessed in our time.Conclusion: The cohesive prophecy of Daniel includes the end time messianic kingdom of God at a latter day time when Israel is restored. Thus the sealing of the prophecy of Daniel until the END TIME. Thus the need for the book of Revelation i.e. the unsealing of Daniel.

Isn't that what you and Peg have been debating/discussing? Your interpretations of Daniel? You're acting as though you have a personal corner on interpreting the book and if someone does not agree, you either ignore or get sore rather than addressing the problems cited head on. You're skirting around my points, all the while hammering away at your own application. You're eating up the lion's share of the thread, discussing/debating 1/6th of the book prophecy which is the most ambiguous of them all.In Daniel 8 the Greek empire is not related to 10 horns/kings or 7 horns/kings. There are only 4 and out of these other empires emerged including the world class Roman empire. Nothing is said here about the saint's & messiah ruling thereafter. That doesn't come until after the 10 horned empire in chapter 7The way the cohesive book prophecy works is as follows:1. Nebs dream vision/interpretation by Daniel which depicts a concise overview of world class empires after which comes the the last; 10 toes, cohesive to the 10 horns followed by messiah/stone ending Gentile rule.2. From there, subsequent prophecies get more specific, detailing events relative to the overview of Neb's image dream. In Daniel 7 the 10 horn end time empore is cohesive to Neb's 10 toes which includes all nations of the world as per the prophecy, followed by saint rule.Your Greek Empire interpretation just isn't cohesive with either Neb's image of 10 toes or Daniel 7's 10 toes. That's obvious, Jazzns. You sure care about your own belief about Daniel and the meaning of it. You think it must be your way or the highway. Look. I've told you why I believe it by showing how world history attests to what is prophesied. How could I tell you why I believe it if I must accept your interpretation of what it says and means? If you wanted a one on one between you and Peg who have similar POVs you should have said so and done a great debate between you. If you can't take the heat and refute participating persons presenting pertinent opposing prophecy POVs you leave the impression that you don't really know a lot about the book or of corroborating prophecies which lend support to Daniel's prophecy.This all has everything to do with why I believe the prophecy and why I can justify it. Your interpretation of the book is incohesive in that it ignores most of the pertinent data given in the other 5/6th of the book, including Nebuchadnezzar's dream and messianic advent ending all Gentile empires. This, you choose to ignore, obviously because it evaporates your POV.1. It doesn't matter how many Greek kings there were so long as the ten kings reduced to 7 are followed by the kingdom of the saints(as per Daniel 7, the horn prophecy) ruling thereafter.2. According to the visions, other Gentile empires follow the Greek, so the Greek empire is not the end times of the prophecy as per Daniel 7, the 10 horn prophecy.My interpretation is just as on topic as yours. If you choose to continue ignore my arguments, that's your perogative, but I'm not packing it up and running off to leave you touting your own agenda so long as it's an open topic.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Novice is not necessarily a demeaning word, Jazzins. I am a golf and tennis novice etc but have done extensive comprehensive study on the prophecies for over 60 years. By your own admission above, you appear to be somewhat of a novice of prophecy, particularly relative to the book of Daniel.Online definition: novice: 1. A person new to a field or activity; a beginner.I'm showing that the Greek empire and the four Grecian kings alluded to in the prophecy (chapter 9, which names Greece)do not satisfy a double fulfillment of the prophecy at large but that the Greek empire is just one of the succession of world empires which the book of Daniel covers, leading up to the end time messianic kingdom on earth which Daniel and the corroborating prophets allude to repeatedly.I am explaining that the the Greek empire is simply one of the empires in the line of events which the prophet Daniel mentions relative to the primary purpose of the book which is to reveal the whole cohesive plan for the ages of planet earth, culminating with the messianic kingdom which Daniel and nearly all of the major prophets of the Bible allude to which is to come at what is described repeatedly by the prophets as well as Jesus himself as the end times.The reason most here at EvC see Daniel's prophecy as contemporaneous to the time given appears to be to deny that future prophecy fulfillment of prophecy is possible and to espouse the secularistic agenda.Furthermore, I am showing that Antiocus Epiphames IV does not satisfy a double fulfillment. There is no double fulfillment, because Antiocus Epiphanes IV and the other Greek kings are simply players in the whole cohesive prophecy as I have detailed in my previous message. 1. The following is taken from your OP to this thread: You begin by assuming that if the prophecy of Daniel is to be fulfilled sometime in the future, there's a double fulfillment.I'm showing that there is no double fulfillment. I've shown why ephames does not satisfy contemporaneous fulfillment because the 10 other kingdoms were to follow Greece and the 10 horned beast is followed by the messianic saint/messiah kingdom as per the cohesive prophecy at large. There is one fulfillment, part of which has been fulfilled in history and the rest is on track for fulfillment in the future. OK. As per your OP I'm addressing the questions you asked relative to supporting why I believe there is no double fulfillment and why the ultimate end time fulfillment is still on track for future.To allege that double fulfillment is necessary for futurist interpretation is erroneous. Nothing in the prophecies require a double fulfillment for the fulfillment to futurist, as I have shown. Imo, the implied premise in your OP to the contrary is not correct. Edited by Buzsaw, : Missed a word in spell check

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi Paul........As per the PaulK version, secularistic self avowed absolute judge and guru of alleged truth? Who then is attempting to trump the Bible, particularly Daniel who's prophecy states that the messianic entity ends the ten horn global empire and END of Gentile rule forever i.e. Daniel's end of days.?Who then is attempting to throw under the rug the Roman empire in all of this before the end of days/fulfillment of prophecy comes?Who then chooses to ignore the end of days rule of the saints of the most high as per the prophecy?Who then refuses to admit that none of the above happened contemporaneously to the times of the prophecy as per Daniel the prophet? The alleged double fulfillment requirement need not exist for futurist fulfillment advocates. It's nothing but an obfuscating obstacle obscuring to obscure the obvious. That's as absurd as insisting that we would need another Nebuchadnezzar and Darius, etc. As I have shown, Alexander is just another cog in the wheel of ultimate end time fulfillment relative to the cohesive prophecy at large.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

In Daniel 8 the he goat, Alexander's empire, after Alexander's death, is divided into four kingdoms. I believe history attests to this.Out of one of the kingdoms emerges eventully non-contemporaneously to the time of the prophecy a fierce one who will stand in the end times against the prince of princes, i.e. messiah and will be broken.I can understand why you would take this to refer to Antiochus, but the problem is that Daniel is told to shut up the vision. Why? Because it is not to be fulfilled for a long time, i.e. at the 2nd advent of Jesus/messiah in the time of the end. There is no evidence that Antiochus confronted an entity regarded as the prince of princes. Nor would Daniel have been instructed to shut up the prophecy for a long time if it applied to Antiochus to effect some kind of double fulfillment.This instruction is repeated to Daniel in chapter 12, the last chapter, that the prophecy is to be sealed until the end time, i.e. when John the Revelator would by God's providence unseal Daniel's prophecy and expound upon the details of the end time fulfillment of what Daniel saw before the sealing of it. Thus, for example, the details of the 10 horned beast revealed by God via John in Revelation 13 and 17. This is why I contend that you will never fully grasp Daniel without applying all corroborating scriptures relative to his prophecies. That's the way the wonderfully harmoneous scriptures are. That's why the comprehensive study of them has always excited me so much. The more I study them, (and I'm still learning after 6+ decades into them) the more I appreciate them and realize that they are indeed inspired from a far greater intelligence then we could ever comprehend. My prayer for you, dear Christian brother Jazzins, is that in your apparent genuine desire to search out the truth, that you will grow to appreciate the accuracy of the Biblical record as I have come to see. This wonderful book is like a very deep fresh water spring which you can never ever drain dry.Now, about Daniel 7. If you still think Daniel 7's 10 horned beast also applies to the Greek empire or 10 or 7 of the kings of the era, you have the same problem as in chapter 8, with the exception that the messiah and his saints saints end all Gentile empires forever (i.e the end times) The ten horned beast of Daniel 7 is that global empire detailed by John in Rev 13 and 17,18 which is the last great gentile global empire, and we are witnessing the emergence via the UN NEW WORLD ORDER which we hear so much about these days.MY LIGHTS ARE DIMMING SO I'M POSTING THIS BEFORE I LOOSE IT!ABE: I've edited this to say that I'm shutting down. We have some weather and we may loose electricity. I'll check for errors later.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edited by Buzsaw, : As indicated.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

There's no twisting. A lot of stuff in Daniel is relatively contemporaneous. For example in Neb's dream, the gold head of the image was contemporaneously Neb's empire, etc. Further, the silver breast, i.e. Medo-Persian was relatively contemporaneous to be fulfilled in Daniel's life time with Daniel involved in Darias the Mede's empire.Imo, the Maccabeans were just another cog in the wheel leading to end time fulfillment. No. It was shut up until a time when signs of the fierce one would emerge simultaneously at a time when events relative to end time messianic prophecy fulfillment would be observed.1. Israel must be restored for messiah to rule because he was to come to a restored nation of Israel as per the prophets (example Ezekiel chapters 36-39, Zechariah 14, Isaiah and others etc.
2. Global government of all nations, tribes and tongues must be in place, i.e. the 10 horn empire of Daniel 7 and Rev 13, 17 and 18.
3. The saints/people of God will be severely persecuted by the powers that be, i.e. tribulation (see Daniel 7 and Rev 13, both being the 10 horn prophecy.So now that we have these things emerging, we have more light on the meaning of Daniel and the corroborating prophets than they themselves had when they wrote them. Wonderfully amazing! Acturally some of Daniel was fulfilled with the first advent of Jesus, one being in chapter 9 beginning with 24 about the 70 weeks. This get's a bit comprehensive and may be for another topic. Perhaps there is some data in chapter 12 relative to the 1st advent of Jesus relative to the 1260 days etc, but again that requres some time to explain.But to concisely answer your question, the 1st Jesus event does not satisfy the fierce one who confronts the prince of princes, the messianic kingdom and the end of Gentile empires, so no. The Jesus 1st advent was neither a single or one of a double fulfillment. It was another cog in the wheel of ultimate fulfillment of Daniel's cohesive prophecy at large.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The this which will be in the "latter days" is the fierce one which, way out in the future, contends with the "prince of princes" who does not show up contemporaneously.1. Epiphames did what he did by his own military might. The one prophesied does it by a higher power. (8:24)
2. Epiphames did not contend with the messianic prince of princes.
3. Nothing is known relative to Epiphames having special powers of "understanding dark sentences" and "cause craft to proser in his hand" i.e. mystery etc. 8:23-25
4. Fulfillment will be at a time when stars/host of heaven are cast to earth 8:10. Note that in the NT, Jesus in his Olivet Discourse synopsis accounts in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 aludes to stars of heaven falling to earth after tribulation of saints/elect and before resurrection of saints, and abomination standing in holy place i.e end times/end of ages. (see Matthew 24 for example, especially verses 3 (time of the end still future), 15 (abomination of desolation), and 29 (stars fall).There's just too much corroboration/cohesion with Daniel's prophecies with Jesus and John's prophecies in the NT to sweep under the proverbial rug. LOL. Numerous historical notables have significantly defied God over the centuries. LOL again. When it comes to comprehensive study and understanding of Biblical prophecy, the mainstream i.e. multitudes amount to the peanut gallery.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.