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Author Topic:   The mystery of Job.
Raha
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 50 (53089)
08-31-2003 4:38 PM


Bible, Old Testament, the book of Job: Where this book came from? It is quite evident that it is very different from the rest of Old Testament.
  1. The very first thing that is very peculiar is form of this book — it looks almost like some kind of play.
  2. It is very transparent and straightforward religious propaganda — so transparent, that one would think it can never work, but it serves its purpose perfectly, as we can see from here for instance:
    defenderofthefaith writes:
    I will admit that in the book of Job, which is the earliest in the Bible (written about 2000 BC) some pretty nasty things happen to Job, but remember - they are not God's doing. Basically, Job was an extremely prosperous man who was faithful to God, and God told satan, "See, here is a man who truly loves Me." satan replied, "But only because he has everything his way. He might be a fair-weather friend." So, at satan's insistence, God allowed satan to inflict evil deeds on Job. Evil things happen to everybody. God had unusually blessed Job because of the man's faithfulness, but satan, in order to pull him away from God, purposely inflicted a more-than-usual amount of nasty stuff on him. It was thus satan who was cruel, not God, and this shows how, when evil occurs (as a result of sin, not God's instigation) God can twist it to His own good. Job had his faith tested and I would think strengthened. And, when satan failed in his little plot, God restored more blessings to Job than ever before.
  3. When was it written? There are passages like this one:
    Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD
    which seem to correspond with Genesis:
    That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
    I think these are the only places where the sons of God are mentioned.
    But how Satan fits in it? Where did he came from? Is it Zoroastrian influence? How come that YHWH, who was supposed to be the only supreme power in the universe, suddenly have an adversary here? The message of book of Job is definitely for early (Saducean) Judaism, where was no Messiah, no resurrection so far.
  4. There is also a question why this book was chosen for Christian canon. Its purpose for early Judaism is evident — God was supposed to reward those who where firm in their belief by good things in their lives. With absence of afterlife this was only possible reward. So some sort of explanation why somebody is miserable despite his religious effort was certainly needed. But according to Christ teachings those who believe will be given their reward in the Kingdom of Heaven. Another discrepancy between book of Job and New Testament is that Job was rich. He was deprived of his wealth, but was given new one afterwards. Jesus taught that people should stay poor.
  5. (edited)It is also quite unusual that God pays attention to ordinary man. In the rest of Old Testament God cares mostly only about "nation" and speaks to its leaders and prophets. This personal relationship between God and Job is also rather unique (IMO).
[This message has been edited by Raha, 08-31-2003]

Replies to this message:
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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 50 (53091)
08-31-2003 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Raha
08-31-2003 4:38 PM


Jesus never said that

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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 50 (53092)
08-31-2003 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Raha
08-31-2003 4:38 PM


Jesus never said that

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 50 (53093)
08-31-2003 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Newborn
08-31-2003 5:02 PM


Jesus never said that
Says you. But Matthew 19:24 says:
quote:
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

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phil
Guest


Message 5 of 50 (53099)
08-31-2003 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
08-31-2003 5:11 PM


Jesus did not tell people to stay poor in Matthew 19:24. He simply is warning them of the dangers of being rich. I am not trying to be mean here, but seriously, think. You know what this passage is trying to say.

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 6 of 50 (53100)
08-31-2003 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by phil
08-31-2003 7:27 PM


Well said.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 50 (53101)
08-31-2003 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by phil
08-31-2003 7:27 PM


I am not trying to be mean here, but seriously, think. You know what this passage is trying to say.
Yeah, it's pretty clear what it says - it says that if you're still wealthy by the time you die, you haven't done nearly enough to help your fellow person.
But if it's not a suggestion to be poor, why do monks interpret this passage to support their vow of poverty? Are you sure this just isn't you, assuming your interpretation is the most literal?
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 08-31-2003]

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Raha
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 50 (53107)
08-31-2003 7:49 PM


Can you, please, take this discussion about what Jesus said or not into another thread? This one is supposed to be about the origin of book of Job.

  
judge
Member (Idle past 6444 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 9 of 50 (53126)
08-31-2003 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Raha
08-31-2003 4:38 PM


Was Job Tobits son?
This article tries to make a case that Job was Tobit's son
Tobias.
Forbidden
It is apparent from reading old and new commentaries on the Book of Job that, after all this time, the holy man has still not been firmly located to any specific historical era. Job comes across as being, like Melchizedek, profoundly mysterious; someone who just appears 'out of nowhere', without a known beginning. The Rev. Frank Knight summed it up when, referring to the book's historical details, he wrote [1]:
The authorship, date, and place of composition of the Book of Job constitute some of the most keenly contested and most uncertain problems in Biblical Criticism. There is perhaps no book in the Canon of Scripture to which more diverse dates have been assigned. Every period of Jewish history, from BC 1400 to BC 150, has had its advocates as that to which this mysterious and magnificent poem must be relegated, and this criticism ranges over 1200 years of uncertainty.
In this article I shall be attempting to narrow down dramatically that "1200" year period "of uncertainty", to a specific era, using a combination of Syrian legends about Job and the apocryphal book of Tobit.
[This message has been edited by judge, 08-31-2003]

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THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 50 (53162)
09-01-2003 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Raha
08-31-2003 4:38 PM


There are eight different opinions regarding when Job lived, which are noted in the Talmud (Hebrew Oral Torah, the text Christians disregarded and substituted for New Testament). There is even a ninth opinion that the story of Job is a parable, that he never lived at all (Talmud, Bava Basra 15a-b).
Maharal explains that the theme of suffering is universal and cannot be isolated to any particular period. That is why (as you noted) this book is quite unique, it does not say when or in what context the events took place.

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Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 50 (53681)
09-03-2003 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
08-31-2003 7:33 PM


It actually refers to all burdens of man, not just financial.
David for instance was pretty wealthy. It sais that you should not put your faith in money, not that you have to forsake money, but that your faith should be in God, not in the sum in your bank account.
Simply put, whether you are rich or poor, it shouldn't affect your relationship with God.

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 50 (58165)
09-27-2003 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Raha
08-31-2003 4:38 PM


I understand that you may possibly be writing in other topic or forum at this time. Hopefully I can be of some minor help with your question #3. Specifically about Satan and the sons of God; According to ancient Jewish beliefs, Satan, which means something like "accuser" in the text of Job was a particular son of God assigned to do God's dirty-work. Satan's job was to go all over the earth and test mankind's faith in God. Therefor Satan in the beginnig was not an enemy of God. He was one of God's inner court of angles.

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Raha
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 50 (58174)
09-27-2003 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Prozacman
09-27-2003 12:31 PM


Yes, but how come God has sons? What is their supposed status? Are they gods as well? (where is monotheism then?) or demi-gods? or what? And also - how he begot them? Does God have a wife? Or is he parthenogenetic?
I think the most prevalent theory for Christian Satan is that he is based on Zoroastrian Ahriman, but Satan of Job does not fit that picture, because, as you pointed out, he does not appear to be God’s enemy.
And why God needs someone to test people’s faith?
------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.
[This message has been edited by Raha, 09-27-2003]

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 14 of 50 (58186)
09-27-2003 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Raha
09-27-2003 1:14 PM


Over in this thread:
http://EvC Forum: How can we be possibly be happy in Heaven? -->EvC Forum: How can we be possibly be happy in Heaven?
I discuss the appearences of Satan throughout the bible - his curious absence early on, how when he first appears, it's in the retelling of an earlier story, in which God had done something evil (and now was replaced by Satan), and the evolution of Satan in relation to the history of the Israelites.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Prozacman
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 50 (58192)
09-27-2003 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Raha
09-27-2003 1:14 PM


All very good questions, and I may only have possible satisfactory answers for some of them. It may be helpful to pick up a book at the library or bookstore(if it is available) titled "The Origin of Satan" by Elane Pagels. Also, if you can, get a copy of the New Revised Standard Version of the New Oxford Annotated Bible and refer to the notes about Satan on pages' 420,526,1223. In these passeges and in the notes one may see the relationship between Satan and God. Apparently sons of God in this context are angels that belong to God's court. As someone has said in another topic(I don't remember where), Satan is God's Prosecuting-Attorney. I have heard of a theory which states that the angels of God in the Old Test. used to be separate gods belonging to the old Babylonian religion; or was it Canaanite, or Egyptian?? Perhaps more research is in order, or maybe someone else in this forum can fill us in. Now if we assume that YHWH(or is it Elohim?) was syncretized from the gods of Egypt, then indeed "God" may have had a wife. The same may also be said if God was a syncretistic production from the Canaanite and Babylonian gods and goddesses. More study will probably bring clarity to this problem. You may be correct in asserting that the "Christian" Satan was based on the Zoroastrian Ahriman. I would be interested to see your research on this. Why does God need to test people's faith? Hmmm...It may have something to do with free-will. Maybe God really is limited and can't do it himself.(herself?)

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