Obama is full of it

You know what, were just not gonna agree on this at all because I don't see the point of even going where you are. Like I said before, I also don't consider Rosevelt, Eisenhower, LBJ, even Bush to be pro-(whatever death mannerism you can think of).I am of Palestinian heritage so your not going to get ANY kind of defense from me for the US involvement in Israel, the IDF, war profiteering, etc. In fact, I will go as far to say that the problems in Israel and in Africa are the most serious threat to human civilization that we currently have and they are NOT being dealt with appropriatly by anyone anywhere.I think Obama has done some good things though. He is criticizing the settlement expansion which is a first for a US president and state department. It is NOT enough but I recognize that the issue is more complicated than that. Again, I would rather have steps toward the right direction than risk getting in an apocolyptic like Palin or Romney who would not just fail to take those steps but would very likely totally undermine any hope of peace.I don't like baby steps, but I prefer them to rolling back down the hill.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

But aren't they in fact "defending themselves" when they retaliate against a US invasion? You can't pick and choose who they should consider a threat. If they feel they're being invaded by what they would call an "imperialist nation," then it should be understood that they're actions are not "acts of terrorism," rather, they are acts of self defense. How is being concerned with the environment and not supporting violence a bad thing?You used euphamisms like "tree huggers" and "anti-war-type people," but essentially you're talking about people with environmental concerns and people who don't advocate war to solve issues. We should ALL be like that.Why do you disagree with that and mock it? You're missing a key factor: All the while, the people were against the Taliban's control, yet now, due to our invasion and prolonged occupation, the people have changed their opinion of the Taliban. They now want to resolve the fighting (which they always did), get rid of the US presence in their country and are willing to allow the Taliban a place in the newly reformed government. That wasn't the case prior to the US lead invasion and prolonged occupation - that has done nothing to help that country, and has only increased the violence.It's also important to remember that the US supported the Taliban and Al-Qaeda by selling them weapons and recruiting radical soldiers to fight the Russians in the 80's. source

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...some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan, and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war." FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, who has been fired from the agency for disclosing sensitive information, has claimed the United States was on intimate terms with Taliban and Al-Qaeda, using them to further certain goals in Central Asia.

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We create the monsters, then get upset when they turn on us. It's sad and pathetic.- Oni

Hey Jazzns,I read your posts #89, 90, and 91. I am generally nodding "yes" to many things you write, except . . .post #89: After eight horrid years of Bush Jr., it is sad I can only admit Obama is "micro-stepping" in the right direction. Obama is a corporate tool. Under an Obama administration, the industrial military complex shant be reduced, there will be more oppression, torture (no talk about closing Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan is there?), and death, while education and health care will go on wanting. No, I rather think too many apathetic/non-thinking/too-easily-complacent/non-voting voters are flawed. Democracy without participation is not democracy.post #90: Keep in mind, one child's death negates a million good things Obama has/will supposedly do. Perhaps that is why the Afghans are now choosing the Taliban. I have noted your postive outlook, unfortunately I am not as optimistic as you. Nonetheless, you don't seem to want to come to grips with this specific overwelming problem: ...the Afghans don't like foreigners inside their country. They understand foreigners murder helpless women and children. When the US murdered the first baby in a village somewhere in Afghanistan, the US presence had permanently lost all credibility. The US is now viewed along with Alexander the Great, the Mongols, the British as ENEMY invaders. Afghans don't like the US, they don't want to act in unison with the US. I don't blame them. Please consider this analogy: Germany invades Poland under false pretenses. Poland doesn't want the Germans inside Poland. While murdering women and children, the Germans continue to prod the Poles to act in unison with the Germans. How likely do you think a lasting peace will form between the Poles and occupying Germans? Just as Germany had illegitimate reasons for occupying Poland, so too has the US for occupying Afghanistan. The Afghans understand this, Americans still don't.post #91: If you are unable/unwilling to acknowledge the war crimes of "Collective Punishment" and the war crimes of using illegal weapons against women and children and the illegality of US giving weapons to a country in violation of human rights, THEN, I understand you won't be in agreement with me. No, not complicated at all. From Obama's point of view, it is ridiculously easy: Stop giving Israel military aid/ANY financial aid. We have seen quick success when this solution was applied to other nations receiving US aid (how quickly Indonesia's Suharto came into line with just the possibility of him not receiving any aid). That Obama will not consider something entirely quick and easy to end oppression, torture, and death of Palestinian woman and children is indicative of his indifference to human suffering.

Dude! You are totally and obviously misquoting me!Common, lets have an honest discussion here. I am talking about your rhetoric. Can we get past this point please? Will you please at least acknowledge that you understand what I am arguing with respect to the labeling ANY president pro-war-crime because otherwise I am enjoying his conversaion and would like to continue with some other points.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

My apologies Jazzns, please explain, I am pleading temporary ignorance.

Your quote was making it seem like I have some kind of disagreement with you that US policy toward Palestine when all I am saying is that I don't think it is fair or helpful rhetoically to go so far as to call ANY president things such as pro-killing civilians.It very well may be the end result of their action or inaction but your speaking to motive which is dangerous territory IMO.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

My main point is what is the alternative? Obama is pressurable and has demonstrated so. This in and of itself is an improvement but I recognize your desire for something much more. But we are not going to get anywhere if let the (far) right wing have any semblance of control because we are unwilling to accept anything less than for the country to do a political 180. All politicians are. This is another BIG problem that isn't going to be solved by even just 1 GENERATION. We are about to be dealt a HUGE blow to campaign finance by the supreme court and I think that may be the nail in the coffin for getting out from underneath this. The only thing we will have remaining is the fact that corporations cannot vote. As long as the progressive movement continues despite the money interest in campaigns, there will have to be at least some accountability to listen to what we have to say. The other answer is to get local which is happening somewhat. Local politics are capable of being immune from national money interests and they can be a bastion for growing progressive politics. No matter how you cut it though, we are about to be f'ed in the a' by Roberts. While I may agree with you philosophically, "goodness" and "badness" do not consist of a single value by which one can be reduced by another. LBJ is a great example. Would you proclaim the Civil Rights Act to mean nothing because of what happened in Veitnam? I'll repeat my assertion that reality is more complicated than our individual morals. It does not mean that we should sacrafice them or water them down. We just need to be aware of it and realize that we can both be outraged and hopeful at the same time. Part of being a progressive is being a multi-issue voter. This is in stark contrast to conservatives who are very often single-issue voters like in the case of pro-life/guns anti-gay/immigrant.I am not going to disagree with you on anything you said about Afganistan and when it does not work it will tarnish him just like Veitnam tarnished LBJ. I'll just repeat don't think it is honest to pre-claim the failure or say that this wasn't something that should be surprising to us about Obama based on what he said in the campaign. That was my whole motive for getting into this dicussion and I think that has been demonstrated amidst the tangents we have gone on.In the end, we are going to get a handful of things that we can build on for the future. An imperfect health care bill will be fixed later when the parts of it that we know don't work actually don't work. An imperfect climate bill will be strengthened once we are unable to compete with the rest of the world. This IS the pace of change if you look at the history of our country. We get this small windows to do something and the future is just tweaks to improve upon it. To try to expect that we are going to do better than this is commendable but ignores history and the processes we use to do things. As much as I would continue to hope that we can do things better, so many things have to change for us to get to that point.Dispair is not an option! Change will only happen if we keep at it.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Well if they were doing that, I might not have a problem with it, if it were for valid reasons, which I am certain that the Taliban thinks they are valid. It would be hypocritical. But they are not doing that, they are taking our training and using it to violate basic human rights. The rest of the world probably agrees, as you can read in the links provided. They are terrorizing their own people. These same people tend to be human rights activists as well. I have yet to read that anywhere, or see that on TV. What I have seen are human beings who want to be free, and are scared for their lives unless they conform to the Taliban radical way of thinking.I can't believe that people who so vigorously speak out against radicals seem to be supporting them now. I guess if it's not happening here, it's not your problem? Let's just blow up the UN, we don't need it. The American haters will never bother us if we just leave them alone, and oh yea, get out Israel.Agreed. Then other countries like Pakistan wonder why we are reluctant to give them the technology they need to "fight terrorism".

Jazzns,RE: post # 97:Certainly one of the better responses I've ever read on the forum. Clear and illustrative. Reminds me of a typical post from Rravin. Good job Jazzns.I am mostly in agreement with your post, I think we are somewhat similar in POV. BUT, while you have a much more patient, willing-to-allow-gradual-change stance, I have a more victim-centric priority (I sometimes think I come across like the character from The Simpsons, Helen Lovejoy, when she bemoans "won't someone think of the children!?"). If my country is doing something illegal or immoral, I want it to stop IMMEDIATELY. Perhaps your stance is a more reasonable, pragmatic course, but in my mind that doesn't help the victims who are suffering right NOW or who will be suffering tomorrow morning.I don't have anything more to add. If you're done, thanks for the "debate". I look forward to our next one.

Just my last thought then. I think it is not just admirable but necessary to push for change as if you want it now like you are suggesting. It just needs to be done with the recognition of our history so that we can always make sure that we are playing the long game. Failing to do this is what has gotten us in trouble before only to have our hopes dashed for entire decades at a time.We also have to recognize that the other side is very good at playing long ball. As bad as the lying and distorting has been for Republicans it is in fact working to some end. Their approval are abysmal but they are dragging the democrats down with them. When we feed into this we only hurt ourselves. This is not to say we need to give any democrat, or any politician for that matter, a free pass. It just needs to come with a recognition that being resolute is in fact different from being a fanatic. Calling a decent but imperfect president a baby-killer may in fact turn away the very winnable support we need to keep the ball rolling.Think about it this way, how might the world be different if Al Gore had been president instead of Bush? Not some utopian paradise but certainly it would likely be much better. Its easy to say that Al Gore got robbed but it ignores the fact that it should have been a blowout to the point that a few stolen ballots in Florida should not have turned the tide. We fell asleep because he was an imperfect canidate and we let our frustrations with a Republican-lite Bill Clinton fracture us against the old time status quo that is always there to stand up when we choose not to.It goes back to the frustrating argument that there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans. This is the MOST self-defeating thing we could ever say because even if it is partially true, it both denies us the opportunity to fight together and fails in the recognition that small differences can in fact be huge in the long run.We are not going to get a perfect health care system this year. But we are going to inject the public meme that health care is a right into law for the first time. That small change will end up having huge consequences for OUR children when they grow up and add to our accomplishments.So keep up the energy, yell loudly and strongly. Criticize even your own being mindful that it serves your ends.Oh and if you can mercilessly mock a few right-wing tools while you are at it for fun it helps to keep up the spirits. =)

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

I essentially agree with you, BUT the problem is, Israel is a "sacred cow" issue and Indonesia is not.Restricting aid to Israel would cause a massive anti-Obama backlash. The already muddled U.S. government operations would get even worse. Obama wouldn't have a chance of being reelected and the U.S. may well end up shifting back more to right-wing crackpot leadership.In the end, things might well be even worse.Moose

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Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

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"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

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"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

Yuppers! I cringe to think of what worse a situation it would be for my ethnic cousins with a Mitt Romney policy instead.We have to remember that the extreme of these nut jobs want to tear down Al-Aska so that the jews will rebuild the temple so we can hurry up for Armageddon already. You talk about genocide now....yikes!

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

I understand what you are saying, and while I somewhat agree, I can't imagine things could be even worse for these Palestinian children:google images search>white phosphorus weapons children (WARNING, graphic images!)white phosphorus weapons children - Google Search(as I mentioned earlier, I can't stop thinking about the women and children victims FIRST)

It could very well be worse.In order for cutting aid to work, Obama would need to accomplish in two years what no President in the last 30 years has been able to accomplish in that region - a lasting peace between the Palestinians and Israelis. If he isn't able to do it, then what happens is in 2012, Sarah Palin wins the election and her Presidency, I am willing to bet, would make us long for the days of George W. Bush.Think of the women and children then should Sarah Palin win the Presidency.

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It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
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Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
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You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

I found this letter to Obama to be a very good read. It really hits at the heart of the issue IMO.(Jazzns, Izagani, Hyro, Dronester) Thought you guys who are debating the Israel/Palestinian conflict might enjoy reading it the most.

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October 13, 2009 - By Sonja Karkar

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The sounds of "yes we can" still ring in our ears, Mr President, but we have yet to see the changes we can believe in. That was evident when you backed down to Israel on a settlement freeze in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. You made us believe that we can, but it seems that you no longer believe that you can.

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On the matter of Palestine, many people in the world would have been happy if you had just stuck to your word. The tragic, relentlessly abused Palestinians were ready to say, "yes we can"; we can negotiate peace again, despite sixteen years of repeated failures, if you would ensure that Israel freezes and dismantles its illegal settlement building. We would all say "yes we can" if we could see the US finally become an honest broker in such an obviously unequal conflict.

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However, the summit meeting you had with the Israeli and Palestinian leaders is worse than that sense of dj vu everyone is talking about. We know that we have all been here before, but more Palestinians are dying Mr President, more of their land is being stolen and being built on, more of their children are suffering from hunger, anaemia and unrelieved psychological trauma, more of their painful hope is being tortured out of them by our miserable efforts to gloss over an ethnic cleansing we said would never happen again.

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What are you waiting for Mr President if you cannot put at least a temporary hold on the $3 billion plus-a-year "aid" your country gives to Israel? If you cannot stop arms sales to Israel when US law expressly states they must be used for defensive purposes only, and when there is precedent for doing so? If you cannot countenance the UN Security Council reaching its own conclusions free of US veto on the charges of war crimes in the Goldstone report? If you cannot distance the US administration from Israel's aggression and defiance even though it hurts America's interests?

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We didn't need a United Nations report to tell us what was so blatantly obvious, but now that we have Goldstone's documented war crimes in Gaza, your concerns about the validity of his mandate only make us wonder if law has lost its meaning. All this patter about moving forward without calling in the debts of horrific crimes against humanity will surely take us down a slippery slope to lawlessness - a licence for aggression - where anything goes for those in power. But what kind of power is it when you cannot stop what you have started? What kind of power is it when you fear the people you suppress by force and terror?

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As each day passes, Mr President, people everywhere believe less and less that you will change the eight awful years of neoconservative rule. In fact, they see things getting much worse. The words "yes we can" increasingly grate, as you do nothing: and you of all people could have turned the Titanic midstream. The world would have been with you, no matter how powerful the military-industrial complex that your late President Eisenhower warned Americans about, no matter how shrill the cries of some 30 million Christian Zionists salivating over End Times in Jerusalem, no matter how intimidating the Israel lobby that shamefully holds Congress in its sway to the detriment of America's own interests.

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Do you really think we don't know that these forces are dictating our futures?

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What kind of future then do you envisage for the 4 million Palestinians under occupation and almost 5 million refugees Mr President? There is no two-state solution: it is a sham. In East Jerusalem and the West Bank, Palestinians are being stripped of their homes and their farming lands while Jewish foreigners flood in from abroad to populate the monstrous complexes being built illegally on the last remaining vestiges of the Palestinian homeland. And in Gaza, people are drowning in blood, ravaged by hunger, sickness and hopelessness while they watch politicians grin and shake hands and make promises that everyone knows are as empty today as they were yesterday. Must another generation of Palestinians watch their prison walls squeeze them in tighter while the world plays more games of pretending peace and talking about a future state vanishing before their eyes?

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Be honest with us Mr President and tell us openly that you cannot fight the forces stacked against you alone. We would understand that. We do want to believe that a sense of justice will still move you to make the changes we can believe in. Billions of people in the world are ready to carry you on the crest of a tsunami, if you would only give us more than words. Perhaps from where you stand Mr President you don't hear how hollow they sound.

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Yet, it is in that very same hollow space that more and more people can hear the keening sounds of silence from Gaza and the rapidly fading echoes of your "Yes we can". It is not too late Mr President to give us the changes we can believe in; it is not too late to say Palestine, "yes we can".

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Sonja Karkar is the co-founder and co-convener of Australians for Palestine and founder and president of Women for Palestine in Melbourne, Australia. She is also the editor of the website and has had numerous articles published in online and printed journals and Australian newspapers. She can be reached at sonjakarkar@womenforpalestine.org

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My favorite line: "Billions of people in the world are ready to carry you on the crest of a tsunami, if you would only give us more than words. Perhaps from where you stand Mr President you don't hear how hollow they sound."- Oni