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Author Topic:   Stasis and Evolution
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 19 of 61 (531307)
10-16-2009 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Arphy
10-16-2009 10:24 PM


Re: Phase 1: Defining "Stasis"
Also it is important to note that YECs believe that most of the fossils we have in the fossil record originated in the flood. This means that in some cases there would have been quite an extreme bottleneck effect as a representative species from a kind was taken onto the ark, which then rapidly diversified after the flood, so really we are talking about relatively constant stasis.
Nope.
You are talking about evolution at several hundred times the rate proposed by paleontologists.
Lets just take the case for modern man vs. earlier species.
Creationist author "John Woodmorappe" writes:
...Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis, and Homo neanderthalensis can best be understood as racial variants of modern man—all descended from Adam and Eve, and most likely arising after the separation of people groups after Babel. (Source)
So what you have here is the exact evolution proposed by paleontologists, which they suggest occurred over a period of about two million years, being crammed into the time from Babel to the advent accurate historic records. What creationists are doing is showing paleontologists are correct about the ability of evolution to enact change, but in this case creationists are going them one better: they are proposing the exact same evolution at a rate several hundred times faster and in reverse!
Note that in the creation model there are far less catastrophic changes in environment (basically the flood and the following Ice age are the main two) than in the evolution model. How did these organisms stay more or less the same over those vast periods of time even through many drastic changes?
Your suggested dates are contrary to all empirical evidence. First, there is no empirical evidence for a global flood ca. 4,350 years ago (the data suggested by biblical scholars). Second, there is absolutely no evidence of an ice age after that date (since 4,350 years ago). Rather, there is evidence for a lot of ice ages earlier than that date. The most recent began to wane some 15,000 years ago.
Try again with more reference to empirical evidence and less reference to creation mythology?
Once we get the dating straightened out we can deal with stasis, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Arphy, posted 10-16-2009 10:24 PM Arphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Arphy, posted 10-17-2009 12:10 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 21 of 61 (531318)
10-17-2009 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Arphy
10-17-2009 12:10 AM


Re: Phase 1: Defining "Stasis"
Arphy, you have got to be kidding me.
Creationists spend most of their time arguing against the theory of evolution (of which speciation is the keystone) rather than supporting either creationism or intelligent design.
I presented in my post a scenario (from creationist author "John Woodmorappe," a high school teacher) who proposes a rate for evolution that is several hundred times faster than that proposed by paleontologists--and in reverse!
And you agree with it! You post: "That is because we have real live evidence that speciation is rapid!"
You can't have it both ways.
If you are all in favor of speciation (because you need to explain the extremely rapid diversification of species after the ark grounded in order to keep the number of "kinds" on the ark to a minimum), then you can't complain about paleontologists who see a much slower rate of speciation as a part of evolution.
You don't get to pick and choose the results you like because of your religious beliefs. If you are going to pretend to follow the scientific method, then you have to follow it! Even if it leads to conclusions you don't like.
Otherwise you are doing religious apologetics, not science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Arphy, posted 10-17-2009 12:10 AM Arphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Arphy, posted 10-17-2009 1:35 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 29 of 61 (532853)
10-26-2009 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Kaichos Man
10-26-2009 10:22 PM


Unfortunately, this creates two more significant problems for evolution.
The first is that, logically, if stasis indicates success, then phenotypic modification must indicate failure. An organism will only evolve when it is under survival stress. This makes every substantial evolutionary step a race against extinction.
...
Stasis is obvious from the fossil record. It is observed and documented. Its ramifications for the ToE are that evolution has very little time to bring about phenotypic change, and can only do so while playing "chicken" with extinction.
It depends on the environment.
If the environment stays about the same, then staying about the same is the correct way for a species to survive. Any radical changes would be contra-survival.
Likewise, when environmental conditions change quickly, then it is a race against extinction, and most species over many millions of years have lost that race. All living species today are still living exactly because they have won (so far) that race against extinction.
So where's the problem for evolution?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-26-2009 10:22 PM Kaichos Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-27-2009 9:09 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 48 of 61 (532937)
10-27-2009 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Theodoric
10-27-2009 10:40 AM


Re: Not an authority of any type
If his work is so great how come he [John Woodmorappe] doesn't publish in real scientific journals?
Because he writes things like:
quote:
The relevant evidence clearly shows that Homo sapiens sensu lato is a separate and distinct entity from the other hominids. No overall evolutionary progression is to be found. Adam and Eve, and not the australopiths/habilines, are our actual ancestors. As pointed out by other creationists [e.g., Lubenow], Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis, and Homo neanderthalensis can best be understood as racial variants of modern man—all descended from Adam and Eve, and most likely arising after the separation of people groups after Babel.
The Non-Transitions in ‘Human Evolution’on Evolutionists’ Terms | Answers in Genesis
No reputable scientific journal would touch that steaming pile with a ten foot pole.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 10-27-2009 10:40 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
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