The problem with creationism and god

I find myself agreeing with Devils Advocate on this, however I take it in a few different directions. I came to realize that creationist end up shooting themselves in the foot when they argue for complexity.I do think complexity is subjective rather than objective; if ID folk credulously believe that life is too complex to have emerged without intelligence guilding it, then yes, they must also explain how any other particular complex designer emerged without design.As cave explains, religous people get past this by stating that god is god because he is eternal.But sometimes, in many discussions here on EvC you'll see creationist call certain things "less complex," or "non-complex."In this case there is a different approach, because now there is a curveball to the original concept that complexity requires design. But what about for things that are not complex? Do they require design? Well no, not according to the original premise. Only complex things require design.And again comes the concern, what is considered not complex?A rock? A hydrogen molecule? An atom?If humans and life in general is complex and requires design, then, following that logic, non-complex things like molecules and atoms don't require design.Here's where creationist get stuck in their logic and have to change things around to make sense. If humans and life are complex and requires design, and, if atoms and molecules are not complex, then the Big Bang was a non-complex event, and, according to the logic in the argument, the BB doesn't require a designer.They try to avoid this by saying that NO, the BB was extremely complex because it was the moment our universe expanded from a singularity - Something must have triggered that.But the singularity would be smaller than an atom (in fact, atoms don't show up for some time after the BB), so if the atom is not complex, then surely something smaller is less complex than the atom...? If it's less complex than something that is considered non-complex, then it doesn't require a designer.It's fun to see creationist dance around this logic. Some just say that everything is complex and everything requires design. Which at that point the word "complex" becomes meaningless. So their argument is not "complex things require design," it's "existance requires design."From that point it blows up in a creationists face.Because, if existance requires design, but god doesn't because he is outside of existance, then oddly enough, they begin to make a case for "god doesn't exist."- Oni

Hi Edmund352, welcome to EvC, I have read the Bible and find this to be untrue. I found god to be vengful, petty, angry and a tyrant ... is my interpretation as valid as yours? If not, why not? What Behe said about irreducibly complex structures in nature has been proven wrong. Behe never was able to prove to the scientific community that his hypothesis was correct.There are a few/many youtube videos that cover the trail he was in in Dover, PA. (USA) where he was allowed to defend his position on the matter, and failed.Here is a 2hr lecture about the trail, and Behe's argument. I recommend you watch it so you don't make the same mistake of thinking Behe's argument was a fact:In fact, "facts" are hard to establish in science, as you will soon find out on this site. The problem is, we have a fossil record that shows no life on this planet 4 Billion years ago (Bya), and fossils that show there was life 3.5 Bya -So, common sense would tell you that "something" happened, right?Now, you can either believe that for some reason, everything leading up to the solar systems, planets, stars, heavy elements, this earth, formed naturally (which many theories explain how) YET, life HAD TO BE formed supernaturally - OR - you can accept that life also formed naturally, like everything else, and investigate, scientifically, how that happened ... which do you feel is more probable?In any case, something happen between those 2 time frames, this we can all agree on - The question is, what happened?If everything leading up to the conditions for life was done naturally, and everything after occured naturally, what reason does anyone have to expect life to be supernatural?- Oni[ABE] Sorry Nosy, I saw your post after I posted my piece on IC. Either way, I think the video is still a great watch for Edmund.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.