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Author Topic:   The problem with creationism and god
Fallen
Member (Idle past 3872 days)
Posts: 38
Joined: 08-02-2007


Message 8 of 109 (531539)
10-18-2009 1:56 PM


Out of curiosity, who are these infamous ID advocates who believe the world is to complex not to be designed? I've heard so much about them from the evolutionist side, but I've yet to find that claim in the ID literature. Does anyone have a reference I can look up?

Beatus vir qui suffert tentationem
Quoniqm cum probates fuerit accipient coronam vitae

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 2:16 PM Fallen has replied

  
Fallen
Member (Idle past 3872 days)
Posts: 38
Joined: 08-02-2007


Message 10 of 109 (531545)
10-18-2009 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Blzebub
10-18-2009 2:16 PM


I am actually quite familiar with both of those arguments, but neither of them are the brute appeal to complexity that you described in your opening post. Specified complexity and irreducible complexity are both attempts to identify the sorts of complexity that can be exclusively associated with intelligent involvement. Intelligent design advocates using these methods of design detection do not claim that complexity, by itself, is evidence of intelligent involvement, even if a vast amount is present. That is why the modifiers irreducible and specified are attached.
Edited by Fallen, : Grammar issues

Forgive me Father, for I know not what I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 2:16 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 2:58 PM Fallen has replied

  
Fallen
Member (Idle past 3872 days)
Posts: 38
Joined: 08-02-2007


Message 12 of 109 (531550)
10-18-2009 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Blzebub
10-18-2009 2:58 PM


There is a massive difference between claiming that a particular kind of complexity indicates intelligence and the claim that complexity alone indicates intelligence. Of course complexity is an important concept for intelligent design advocates. But there is much, much more to intelligent design than simply appealing to complexity.

Forgive me Father, for I know not what I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 2:58 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 4:07 PM Fallen has replied
 Message 14 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-18-2009 6:11 PM Fallen has not replied

  
Fallen
Member (Idle past 3872 days)
Posts: 38
Joined: 08-02-2007


Message 15 of 109 (531779)
10-19-2009 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Blzebub
10-18-2009 4:07 PM


In "ID" circles, is the putative "designer" thought to contain irreducible or specific complexity itself, or is it a more "simple" entity?
Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't give us an answer to that question. Design detection methods try to find the barrier between objects that can be created by natural processes and objects that can only be put together by an intelligent agent making choices. Because literally all intelligent agents can make choices, all we can say is that an intelligence of some kind was involved.

Forgive me Father, for I know not what I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 4:07 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Blzebub, posted 10-20-2009 11:11 AM Fallen has not replied
 Message 17 by Briterican, posted 10-20-2009 3:12 PM Fallen has not replied

  
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