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Author Topic:   Clades and Kinds
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 58 of 143 (531195)
10-16-2009 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
10-16-2009 11:36 AM


Re: Non Agreement
There can be no agreement by a Bible believing litteralist that..
No Bible believing litteralist believes...
This Bible believing litteralist believes...
Belief gets in the way of learning.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
(See also tagline.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 10-16-2009 11:36 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 72 of 143 (531281)
10-16-2009 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ICANT
10-16-2009 6:13 PM


Re: Non Agreement
I just wish they would teach what the Bible says. Instead of their interpertation of what the Bible says.
More likely you wish they would teach your interpretation of what the bible says.
If there was only one "what the bible says" there wouldn't be so many tens of thousands of separate denominations, sects, and branches of Christianity.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 10-16-2009 6:13 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 75 of 143 (531308)
10-16-2009 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by lyx2no
10-16-2009 10:52 PM


Re: Noah's Clades
Some time back a man named Noah had three sons, Ham, Shem and Japhet. Catch us up a few years and we have you and me. I'm clearly a descendent of Ham. As preachy as you are you must be a descendent of Shem.
This is an easy problem! Just take some DNA samples and you'll be able to trace your respective ancestries back to the exact Noah kin from whom you are descended. With Y chromosome and mtDNA analysis you should have just eight individuals to choose from!
(Except that it doesn't work that way in the real world. The data show that the Noah/eight individuals story is a myth.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by lyx2no, posted 10-16-2009 10:52 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by lyx2no, posted 10-16-2009 11:50 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 77 of 143 (531314)
10-16-2009 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by lyx2no
10-16-2009 11:50 PM


Re: Noah's Clades
I just want it to be know: I'm a 6.5 on the faitheist/atheist scale we had a while back. I'd be kind of embarrassed if someone thought I believed in Thor, pixies, SpongeBob or Noah's unlikely story. It all seems really funny to me.
Your post was a convenient launching point for my post.
I certainly did not mean to imply any particular position was attributed to you, or that you were the subject of my post.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by lyx2no, posted 10-16-2009 11:50 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 93 of 143 (531783)
10-19-2009 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ICANT
10-19-2009 7:39 PM


Kinds, baramins, and other creationist fantesies
A kind is made up of one kind of critter not two kinds.
Sorry, that's not much of a definition. It is circular, and relies on undefined terms.
The "taxonomy" behind kinds is laid out in the creationist literature. Here is an excerpt from an article by Wayne Frair, Ph.D.
As Dr. Frair has a Ph.D. in Biochemical Taxonomy from the Rutgers University he should be able to set the record straight on this issue.
quote:
Guidelines
In accomplishing the goal of separating parts of polybaramins, partitioning apobaramins, building monobaramins and characterizing holobaramins, a taxonomist needs guidelines for deciding what belongs to a particular monobaraminic branch. These standards will vary depending upon the groups being considered, but general guidelines which have been utilized include:
1. Scripture claims (used in baraminology but not in discontinuity systematics). This has priority over all other considerations. For example humans are a separate holobaramin because they separately were created (Genesis 1 and 2). However, even as explained by Wise in his 1990 oral presentation, there is not much relevant taxonomic information in the Bible. Also, ReMine’s discontinuity systematics, because it is a neutral scientific enterprise, does not include the Bible as a source of taxonomic information.
2. Hybridization. Historically Marsh and others have placed this criterion second only to the Bible; for if viable offspring could be obtained from a cross between two different forms, this would be definitive of their monobaraminic status. However, we realize today that the lack of known hybridization between two members from different populations of organisms does not necessarily by itself mean that they are unrelated. The hybridization criterion probably will retain validity, but it is being reconsidered in the light of modern genetics.
3. Ontogeny, namely the development of an individual from embryo to adult. Hartwig-Scherer (1998) suggested that comparative ontogeny followed hybridization in importance as a criterion for membership in a particular type.
4. Lineage. Is there evidence of a clear-cut lineage between and among either or both fossil and living forms.
5. Structure (morphology) and physiology (function). Structures may be macroscopic (large entities such as body organs), microscopic (small, and observed using magnification), and molecular (chemical) configurations.
6. Fossils in rock layers. These studies can include locations of fossil forms in the rock layers, and may entail considerations of Flood sediments.
7. Ecology. It is important to comprehend an organism’s niche, that is to say the region where it lives and how it interacts with the environment including other living things.
The page you were looking for doesn't exist (404)
Scripture is the most important consideration?
I bet he didn't learn that at Rutgers!
So what we have as the guidelines for the field of baraminology is adherence to scripture, and only then is attention paid to more scientific studies--but only as long as they don't conflict with scripture.
In other words, "kinds" (masquerading as science under the terms baraminology and "discontinuity systematics") is nothing but religion. Any attempts to make it into science are doomed to failure because it has to conform to scripture while science can go where the evidence leads, and science has been leading in other directions for centuries now.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ICANT, posted 10-19-2009 7:39 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 130 of 143 (532023)
10-20-2009 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
10-20-2009 7:17 PM


Distinction between origins and evolution
Then you shouldn't mind one whit if I do not jump on the evolution bandwagon until somebody produces scientific verifiable reproducible evidence of how life began to exist on earth.
Here are five hypothesis regarding the origin of the first life forms.
a) Natural processes occurring entirely upon earth resulted in chains of self-replicating molecular strands that eventually became the first life forms.
b) Aliens from another planet and/or dimension traveled to this planet and -- deliberately or accidentally -- seeded the planet with the first life forms.
c) In the future, humans will develop a means to travel back in time. They will use this technology to plant the first life forms in Earth's past, making the existence of life a causality loop.
d) A divine agent of unspecified nature zap-poofed the first life forms into existence.
e) Any method other than the four described above led to the existence of the first life forms.
Please describe which of these five could not have subsequently progressed through evolution, and defend your answer.
(But please leave the scripture and catechism out; this is a Science Forum thread and your answer should rely on empirical evidence, not religious belief).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2009 7:17 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2009 10:13 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 136 of 143 (532037)
10-20-2009 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
10-20-2009 10:13 PM


Re: Distinction between origins and evolution
The one I believe in is not listed.
If the one you believe in (of my list of five) is sufficiently different, perhaps you should specify it.
And specify why evolution could not have occurred after that origin, and could not account for what we see in the natural world.
Again, please leave catechism and religious belief for other threads; this thread is in the Science Forum.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2009 10:13 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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