Information Changes in DNA by logical Analysis

I think we pretty much agree. We can't know that no such method exists, but I would add that neither can we just presume that one does exist.About not needing actual numeric values, no argument there, either. Variables like x are fine. But statements like x have a numeric foundation. If we're going to make statements like I_dna1dna2 then we need some sort of basis for performing the comparison.

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If the argument is that if there's a mutation that can decrease information that therefore there must be a mutation that can restore it again, then I think creationists would probably accept this. But as Mr. Jack has explained, they would consider that to be a restoration of information that was there at creation. A mutation that could increase information beyond what was present at the beginning isn't possible.

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--Percy

No, I didn't read Gitt's book, for the same reason I don't read books on homeopathy, past lives and spoon bending. If you think there's something of merit in Gitt's book then bring it forward into the discussion.--Percy

That the universe began in perfection and has been deteriorating since is a very common part of the creationist viewpoint, so I don't think they're switching frameworks when they remind us of this. Maybe we understandably fail to take it into account if they don't mention it explicitly up front, but we do know about it.Dr Adequate is seeking a way to counter the creationist claim of no new information without requiring an understanding of information theory or even a definition of information. I don't know that this is possible, though it seems well worth exploring. But it is possible that creationists only buy into the bogus creationist claims about information solely because they don't understand information theory or even know what information is, and that therefore you have to educate them before you can convince them.It again feels like 2LOT discussions to me. I don't think I've ever been involved in a 2LOT discussion where the creationist eventually came to understand that it isn't about messy rooms, and I think information theory presents many of the same conceptual problems.--Percy

So applying similar pedantry to ordering information, I think in the absence of a proposed method we must consider as undemonstrated the claim that information can be ordered without defining how it is quantified.--Percy

So what's the answer? Is there one? How do you help someone understand that new information can be created when they don't understand information theory or even have a useful definition of information?--Percy