Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment

Jazzns, you are more unresponsive one. You ignore 3/4 of the on topic points which I cite, all of which pertain to the prophecies of Daniel.I did not ignore the Macabeans. They are relatively unimportant because they fail to meet the test for end time fulfillment which according to both Daniel and corroborating prophets will be at a time when messianic data begins to emerge.Either the prophecies will fail or there's some unexplicable reason the events cited which pre-empt end time fulfillment, such as a global new world order which President Obama the UN openly advocates, world monetary systems and a restored Israel etc. You're copping out, Jazzns. What I cited are not fickle minded conspiracies. They are observable and on track legitimate evidences. Obviously you can't refute so you restort to illigitimizing the factual on topic data which I have cited.Read me carefully, Jazzns.Example 1: True or false? Daniel cites fulfillment relative to confrontation to the prince of princes and to the saints of God ruling after the end comes to Gentile empires.Example 2: True or false? Both the Daniel 7 ten horned beast prophecy and the Revelation 13 ten horned beast prophesy depict a global empire and depict the empire making war with the saints of God.You can't just waive off these evidences, charging off topic. You need to either address them head on or leave off of the false accusations.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Until modern times there were no stars in the sky capable of falling. Lo and behold now this is one of corroborating factors relative to futuristic fufillment of Daniel which we observe today. Our modern sky is alive with lights of space craft, satelites and high flying jet planes capable of being cast to the earth. If one in Daniel's time visualized these lighted craft falling at night it would appear that stars were falling to earth. So yes, I take this literally.By the same token, the prophet John prophesied that a all nations, tribes and tongues would see an event happening at one location on earth. Up until modern TV etc anyone reading this would think that the prophecy would fail or that it was a metaphor or something.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Until modern times there were no stars in the sky capable of falling. Lo and behold now this is one of corroborating factors relative to futuristic fufillment of Daniel which we observe today. Our modern sky is alive with lights of space craft, satelites and high flying jet planes capable of being cast to the earth. If one in Daniel's time visualized these lighted craft falling at night it would appear that stars were falling to earth. So yes, I take this literally.

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So the "man" in question is a literal horn who literally grows into the sky and knocks down satellites. I'm sorry for underestimating just how crazy your ideas were.

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By the same token, the prophet John prophesied that a all nations, tribes and tongues would see an event happening at one location on earth.

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No, Buz he didn't. We've been over that already.

My Hebrew to English Interlinear says of the little horn, "And it became great, even to the stars of the heavens. And it made fall some of the host and of the stars to the ground and trampled them."The words, satelites, space craft and jet planes (stars) and their passengers (host) could easily be substituted relative to modern air and space technology. There are already terrorist ambitions to develop tech to foul up the computers, etc of jets etc to cause them to "fall to the ground" as per the prophecy of Daniel. LOL. So says the looser of that debate, relative to Revelation 12:

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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My Hebrew to English Interlinear says of the little horn, "And it became great, even to the stars of the heavens. And it made fall some of the host and of the stars to the ground and trampled them."

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How else is a giant horn - so big it reaches the stars - going to to make those stars fall out of the sky ?

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The words, satelites, space craft and jet planes (stars) and their passengers (host) could easily be substituted relative to modern air and space technology. There are already terrorist ambitions to develop tech to foul up the computers, etc of jets etc to cause them to "fall to the ground" as per the prophecy of Daniel.

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But so far there are no reports of a giant horn leading a terrorist cell. The trampling would be a bit odd, too.

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LOL. So says the looser of that debate, relative to Revelation 12

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Er no. So says somebody who actually reads the Bible and knows what it says.

Accidently submitted early. See next reply.Edited by Jazzns, : double post

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Buz, I am trying to respond to the points I feel are relevant to why I started this thread. I realize there is a deep understanding that you feel you have about these particular prophecies but I feel like we are getting very bogged down in Daniel. I am interested in the general method of interpretation. You and Peg both seem to be taking a version of interpretation that is theology first, history/literary second. THAT is not the question I asked. I asked why you talked about Daniel's prophecy being sealed until John the Revelator as important to establishing the futurist interpretation when it is very plainly clear that Daniel was prominent in Maccabean times. This is a legitimate question that I have about your method of interpretation. "Facts" aside, modern fulfillment of prophecy is not something I am interested in. In fact it bores the crap out of me. Anybody can play the psychic friends game and make ancient writings fit modern times. People have been doing it for, oh about 2000 years now. Buz, I think you are using the fact that I don't agree with you as an excuse not to try to understand what I am asking about in this thread.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Jazzns, I have shown that there is no valid contemporary fulfillment of Daniel's cohesive at large prophecy which culminates with the end time messianic world empire which ends Gentile empires forever. This is key in Neb's ten toed image dream all the way down to the ten horned beast prophecy.I have shown that nothing contemporaneous to the writing of the prophecy meets the qualifications for fulfillment of Daniel's at large cohesive fulfillment.Further, I have substantiated that end time fulfillment is on track to fruition relative to observed modern day observable evidences.Conclusion: There is no double fulfillment which means there is also no double fulfillment. As per Daniel's own words the fulfillment was to be delayed until the end times, i.e. the end of Gentile world empires as per Daniel, all of the OT corroborating prophets and as per Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and John in Revelation.You cannot; I repeat, cannot isolate Daniel from the corroborating prophets and do Biblical eschatological academics justice. Your OP statement below allows for this.Your OP falsly assumes that end time fulfillment necessarily requires double fulfillment. I have soundly substantiated that assumption to be a false and erroneous pre-requisite to futurist fulfillment.It appears that your response to my facts are to attempt to illigitamatize my input as off topic or as failure to address your question. I see that as a cop-out on your part rather than a digression from ligitimate debate on my part.This all is pertinent on topic information necessary to adequately address your question/challenge to advocates of either double fulfillment or of the majority POV in eschatological academia circles. (embolding mine for emphasis)EvC Forum: Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Which is not a requirement. It is perfectly reasonable for Daniel to be wrong or even just partially wrong. Which is the part I was calling the "psychic friends game". This is irrelevant. Arguments can and have been made for other world leaders and events filling in for the prophecies just the same. Why are yours better? Yes and I tried to address that and you didn't respond to my point. At least that I didn't see. John the Revelator was able to READ Daniel. Corroborating with something that you can reference is easy. You are labeling as "facts" your own interpretations. It would certainly help make your case if you were to be a little bit more humble about your participation. I realize that you have many years invested in this but that does not automatically make you right.Buz, please answer my question about the prophecy being "sealed". Was it "sealed" until John or not? Does that change what you said about it supporting a futurist interpretation?Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Mmm, no. In fact Jewish law required that prophets who falsely prophesy should be put to death. This was to irradicate dissemination of deceit. The text in no way allows for error. Thus the evidence that the fulfillment is on tract for futurist fulfillment, as I have detailed. Need I repeat myself for the umpteenth time? Who do you think Daniel's prince of princes and Daniel's rulling saints alude to relative to an alleged contemporaneous fulfillment? I anxiously anticipate an answer to the question. But John, who could read Daniel, significantly unsealed Daniel's prophecies, elaborating an abundance of additional data relative to prophecies such as the 10 toe/10 horn chapters which I have cited. You have failed to address any of this pertinent data which I have cited, waiving it all off as irrevalent to the topic.Certainly, no reading of Daniel would enable John to precisely predict, pertaining to approaching apocalypse perceptively, pertinent to expounding on Daniel. There's just too many significant end time predictions relative to our time which I have cited to waive off. How can you allege that, Jazzins? I'm interpreting little. I have furnished a significant amount of data relative to what Daniel, Jesus and John prophesied, verified by what we observe in our day pertaining to fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies. On the other hand you and Paul focus in on a few cogs in the at large wheel of complete fulfillment, waiving off significant troublesome non-contemporaneous data as failure or irrevalent. I've repeatedly showed how John's pertinent data updating/unsealing the 10 toes/horns chapters have revealed additional data. Furthermore John has expounded, detailing numerous events so as to take off where Daniel ended as to what to expect all of the way to the end of the present earth as it is. The Bible begins with the Genesis record of creation and ends with the end of the world as it is and creation of new heavens, a new earth and a new Jerusalem.Daniel's prophecies were an early revealing of coming world events all of the way up until the end times. The revelation of John begins with the church era all of the way to the end, precisely detailing on end time data which was sealed from Daniel.Amos 3:7 states that Jehovah will do nothing unless he first reveal it to his servants, the prophets, essentially establishing that at least the majority of Biblical prophecy is intended to be futurist. Edited by Buzsaw, : improve wording

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

You said.... We KNOW that the prophecy was in fact NOT "shut up" until after Antiochus. In fact we KNOW that Daniel was being circulated and edited contemperaneous to Antiochus.On this one point and this one point only, how can you support that this order to "shut up" the prophecy supports only a futurist interpretation?

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

The prophecy does not say that the written scripture of Daniel would not be circulated and published etc after Daniel's time. The text clearly implies that there would be no further revelation until the end time revelation would be completed, i.e. the sealing. As I said, John the revelator most certainly had access to all of the OT scriptures. The implication is also that complete understanding of the prophecies would not be realized until the time frame of the fulfillment. This is true with all prophecy.I don't think there's evidence that any editing significantly changed the prophecy content of Daniel.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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The prophecy does not say that the written scripture of Daniel would not be circulated and published etc after Daniel's time.

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I think that I see the problem. Jazz is referring to 12:4 and you are referring to 12:9

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The text clearly implies that there would be no further revelation until the end time revelation would be completed, i.e. the sealing.

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The question comes down, then to whether John could be the "unsealing". 12:4 rules that out. 12:4 cannot refer to a lack of further revelation - as it is an instruction to Daniel. 12:4 must refer to keeping the Book of Daniel (or at least that part of it) secret to the "end times". And as Jazz and I have both pointed out, the Book of Daniel was definitely known by the Maccabean period. 12:4. therefore indicates the "time of the end" occurring in the Maccabean period or shortly before, in agreement with Daniel 8:23.

There you go again, Paul, quote mining little single phrases out of the prophecy at large. You keep on waiving off all of the rest of Daniel's referrals to what the last days/times are relative to messianic fulfillment.I asked Jazzns who the "prince of princes" and the "ruling saints" who end up with the world class kingdom (after suffering severe persecution/tribulation) the end of all Gentile world class empires, i.e. the end times are. I'm still waiting for Jazzns answer to that. Perhaps you want to take a crack at it.Furthermore, all of the other major prophets refer to the end time events relative to Israel and messianic rule. As well, Jesus in two of the Olivet Discourse accounts prophesied relative to the end times/end of the age including Gentile occupation of Israel, etc.You two are acting like novices who are totally unaware of these Biblical facts. You both need to do some reading up on the prophets; all of them, rather than this quote mining little tid-bits from a couple of chapters in Daniel, insisting that this is substantiating your flimsy argument.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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There you go again, Paul, quote mining little single phrases out of the prophecy at large. You keep on waiving off all of the rest of Daniel's referrals to what the last days/times are relative to messianic fulfillment.

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By which you mean that I'm NOT ignoring the bits of the Bible you don't like.

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I asked Jazzns who the "prince of princes" and the "ruling saints" who end up with the world class kingdom (after suffering severe persecution/tribulation) the end of all Gentile world class empires, i.e. the end times are. I'm still waiting for Jazzns answer to that. Perhaps you want to take a crack at it

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The "Prince of Princes" is God (as I already told you) and the "ruling saints" would be the Jews who remain loyal to their faith.

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Furthermore, all of the other major prophets refer to the end time events relative to Israel and messianic rule. As well, Jesus in two of the Olivet Discourse accounts prophesied relative to the end times/end of the age including Gentile occupation of Israel, etc.

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OT references to the Messiah just refer to the restoration of Israel and Davidic rule. Daniel doesn't really go into that.

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You two are acting like novices who are totally unaware of these Biblical facts.

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Come off it Buz. You;re not even up to novice level at understanding Daniel. There's more real BIble study in my last post than you typically manage over an entire thread. You can't even manage to make arguments consistent with your own position (hint: do you really think that the "end times" refers to the time Revelation was written ?).The real facts are that we do NOT have to assume that the NT references are anything more than an after-the-fact reinterpretation of Daniel (which is, of course, all that they are). And there's no need for Daniel to even be consistent with other OT references, let alone Christian interpretations of OT references.What is far more important - and which YOU are far too willing to set aside is the actual text of Daniel. Even a novice would know that.

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...you both need to do some reading up on the prophets; all of them, rather than this quote mining little tid-bits from a couple of chapters in Daniel, insisting that this is substantiating your flimsy argument.

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By which you mean that we should stop reading Daniel for what it says and start twisting it to fit in with your beliefs. Sorry Buz, but why would I want to start misrepresenting the BIble just to prop up your false beliefs ?Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.