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Author
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Topic: Precognition Causality Quantum Theory and Mysticism
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
I appreciate the link. In the future I hope you will refrain from insulting me for what you perceive to be gross misinformation on my part. You know the nature of the web and understand that most of what we get comes from the web. I especially can't go to my local bookstore and buy books on the subject as the books would likely be in another language. I understand the point of trying not to be off-topic. But if I have said anything that offends what you know, let me know in a respectful manner. I am not the creationists you normally argue with. I have no problems with learning new information. And like most humans, I respond well to civility.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 161 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:13 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: The Scientific Conspiracy?
His whole thing seems to be to take science to the masses by making people think that their anecdotes and wishful thinking are as valid as the closed minded experiments conducted by the biased scientific elite. His books and internet "research" are prime examples of this thinking. In effect a million claims of telepthic dogs is worth more than a single double blind randomised trial. I mean that many people cannot be deluded or wrong can they? How dare scientists dismiss this overwhelming pool of evidence just to sustain their empire of exclusivity and knowledge. You might as well ask people if their babies are cute as ask people to objectively assess whether or not their pets are "special".
Well, I'm assuming we're in agreement about Sheldrake then? Disregarding the moneymakers, can we agree that if the phenomenon of telepathy could be studied under rigorous, scientific methodology and explained naturalistically, then telepathy is at least possible?
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 164 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2009 7:23 PM | | Straggler has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 172 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2009 7:43 PM | | Izanagi has not replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
Izanagi, what is telepathy?
Well, it's a transfer of thought or ideas between people.
Oh, how does that work?
Good question, it's a type of field.
Really, a field? How does it appear in the action?
Errr, what's an action???
Actually, I posited an naturalistic explanation in Message 138 for telepathy that no one apparently read. But then, I guess my posts are too stupid for people to read. My idea is that brainwaves could be the root cause of telepathy. Since brainwaves can be measured, an experiment measuring the brainwaves of the dogs could be done. ABE: The person who's marking my posts as ones, you're missing a few. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 161 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:13 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: Evidenced Possibility?
Then we are in agreement. Haha, apparently a whole night spent arguing and it turns out we agree. The silliness of life.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2009 7:39 PM | | Straggler has not replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
I only insult you for what IS gross misinformation on your part. You display a common net attitude of taking to heart what you read and then attempt to wield it with a completely undeserved authority.
The you should correct that gross misinformation on my part by pointing me to where I can find better information. I assume that's the job of a teacher, not to insult the student for making a wrong statement, right? I don't take to heart what I read. I read about one subject over multiple sites to make sure the information is corroborated. If all those sites I go to agree, then what am I supposed to do?
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 169 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:40 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Message 174 of 237 (532539)
10-23-2009 7:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 170 by onifre
10-23-2009 7:40 PM
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Re: Dogs that Know experiments
Now, what's telepathy?
I explained what I think telepathy is. To me, it could be specific brainwave patterns. We can test for brainwaves. The explanation lies in the natural world. It is falsifiable.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 7:40 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 176 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 7:56 PM | | Izanagi has replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
Izanagi here has cracked it with a quick appeal to parsimony. Where the fuck were you when I needed you?
That seems odd, because I've noticed a few threads about Evolution that suggest that parsimony is a desired quality in a theory. Is that wrong? ABE: Ah, nevermind... misread Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 169 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:40 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Message 178 of 237 (532544)
10-23-2009 8:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 176 by onifre
10-23-2009 7:56 PM
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Re: Dogs that Know experiments
They do. Brainwaves are contained in your head. Is telepathy "travelling brainwaves"...?
How should I know, I never gave it much thought. But the fact that you are now mocking my, what I am assuming is, a naturalistic explanation tells me you won't consider the argument. MRI scans, EEG readings are ways we can see if there's anything going on in the brain during the supposed "telepathic" event. The explanation is rooted in the natural world and therefore falsifiable. Do the experiments and prove me wrong and it wouldn't matter one lick to me.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 176 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 7:56 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 184 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 8:32 PM | | Izanagi has replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
You are most certainly not my student. But those students of mine who have taken it upon themselves to spout bullshit with authority have been well and truly insulted. Don't confuse making mistakes with causing others to make mistakes, because of your own erroneous proclamations.
I may not be, but if you had any interest in helping us lowly and common netizens truly understand those concepts, then you would have put me on the right track. The fact that you didn't only tells me that you don't care if we get the correct information and are only interested in insulting people who haven't taken multiple classes in QM. Good for you for picking on someone and not helping to understand the field better. Good for you for showing that elitist nature of scientists. The question I ask is have you done anything to solve the ignorance on my part? You seem capable of only criticizing, even when a person genuinely wants to learn. So good for you in instilling in people the desire to find the correct information so that they can better understand things.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 177 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 7:59 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: Prediction Vs Post-Hoc Analysis
Do you at least agree that in subsequent tests Sheldrake should be able to make "blind" predictions about the leaving time of the owner based on the behaviour of the dog alone if his hypothesis is true? Surely even you can see that this is more objective than simply correlating two sets of data and applying the statistical analysis required to get the desired answer?
Oh, I agree that a well-formed hypothesis needs to have predictive power. The idea of a nonquantifiable morphic fields seems to preclude the ability to test for when the telepathic event is supposed to happen. What I mean is that whenever the owner randomly goes home, the model should be able to predict with great accuracy that moment the owner decides to go home through whatever criteria. But the fact the Sheldrake's model for telepathy uses a nonquantifiable explanation means that you likely can't predict that moment. So yes, predictive quality is important.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 179 by Straggler, posted 10-23-2009 8:09 PM | | Straggler has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 208 by Straggler, posted 10-26-2009 4:05 PM | | Izanagi has not replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
Starting to feel a little out of your depth for making such proclamations yet?
No, but I'm starting to learn something new, i.e. in differential geometry and algebraic topology, d=4 is nearly always the most complex case, out of all possible d. My next questions would be why d=4 is the most complex, why is d>4 more complex in that situation and why that one aspect trumps all other 2000 aspects. There are other questions, of course, but no need for you to answer any of them including the three I posted. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 181 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 8:19 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Message 185 of 237 (532552)
10-23-2009 8:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 184 by onifre
10-23-2009 8:32 PM
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Re: Dogs that Know experiments
Are they brainwaves that travel in some sort of field, or, are they brainwaves that stay in the brain? These questions are important, and will also show that when people use the word 'telepathy" they have no clue what the word means or what they are describing.
I don't know much about brainwaves, but I don't think it really matters if they stop at the skull or are in some sort of field because brainwaves typically originate in the brain. We can use an EEG to measure what we can and when technology catches up, and if it is possible, a portable MRI machine or something similar to scan the brain. So regardless of whether it stays in the head or not, we should be able to measure the EEG or the brain activity that might be associated with it. And just for the hell of it, we'll measure the EEG of and brain scan the owner as well. And for the record, I usually am quite capable of separating what I like to be true from what is scientifically possible. For instance, I would like magic to be true so I can cast fireballs to my heart's content, but I know it's never going to happen. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 184 by onifre, posted 10-23-2009 8:32 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 189 by onifre, posted 10-24-2009 11:01 AM | | Izanagi has replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: If I'm misinformed, whose fault is that?
That's fine, and it would be an interesting topic to talk about. Like I said, I like learning about new things because while stupid is a condition, ignorance is a choice, and I don't like being ignorant. I value knowledge. I debate so I can learn more from other people and adjust my knowledge according to what I learn. But I don't like being called ignorant. That's why I stopped arguing with Smooth_Operator - because he decided insulting me was better than debating the points on their merits (although perhaps I might have started it). In my opinion, insulting a person who doesn't have all the knowledge doesn't demean the person who was insulted. But it may cause a lost opportunity for lifting the shroud of ignorance. Anyway, that's a topic for another time. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 186 by cavediver, posted 10-23-2009 8:40 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5235 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Message 190 of 237 (532612)
10-24-2009 8:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 189 by onifre
10-24-2009 11:01 AM
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Re: Dogs that Know experiments
The problem with this line of thinking is that you are assuming that brain waves can travel in a "field," when in fact they cannot. Brain waves are simply the firing of neurons, which travel down axons and release chemicals at the synapse. So in no way can these brain waves be doing anything but working in your brain.
I'm not assuming anything so don't put words in my mouth. My contention is that if telepathy were a real process, it would likely involve the brain as part of that process. Since we have methods of looking into the brain and see what's going on, through MRIs, EEGs, and MEGs, then we would be able to see changes that should be taking place during a telepathic event. The actual mechanics of telepathy are unimportant since my idea (and I hesitate to call it a hypothesis) is that since the brain receives the information, it is involved somehow. My only assumption is that the brain is the center for most sensory input - that is the brain interprets most, if not all, inputs we receive. If telepathy is part of this "sixth sense" then the brain should also be involved. Now we know, through the technology of MRIs, many new information on the activity of the brain when we receive sensory input. We can see the changes that are taking place in the brain as different things are happening. We even know more of what is happening in the brain during sex. So if telepathy is involved with the brain somehow, then changes in the brain would be a logical effect since sensory input has shown to effect changes in brain activity. So what we are doing is looking for the effect on the brain of the act of telepathy. Once again, I am not worried about the mechanics. I am not assuming anything regarding the mechanics. The only assumption I am making is that processing sensory information effects measurable changes in the brain. I am looking to see if there is an effect on the brain. If it turns out that there is an effect on the brain, then further studies can be made as to why there are changes, and if telepathy is the cause, how telepathy occurs. If there is no effect (there likely aren't) then telepathy most likely can't be a natural process because I know of no other way by which the brain can process information without effecting changes in the brain. Once again, my only assumption is that the process of telepathy should effect measurable changes in brain activity. No other assumptions are being made.
It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 189 by onifre, posted 10-24-2009 11:01 AM | | onifre has not replied |
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