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Author | Topic: Daddy, is God real? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5930 Joined: Member Rating: 5.8 |
When we have our little talks with our children, we need to remember that they might see things a bit differently.
I started elementary school with Kindergarten in 1955. A bit later, my mother had signed me up for "Released Time Religious Education". The public schools could not provide any religious instruction, but parents were given the option for their children to be taken out of class and taken off-campus for religious instruction. Most schools have a trailer parked out on the street for that purpose, but there was a Protestant church across the street from my school, so that was where I went. The only lesson I remember was the one about Abraham walking along the hillside gathering rocks to make an altar. Only the Abraham I envisioned in my mind during that lesson was tall, had a beard, and wore a black suit and a stove-top hat. Abraham Lincoln was the only "Abraham" I knew of. Then there was the small child who was afraid of the Pledge of Alligence because of the witch. "... for witch it stands ..." When I was little, I read comic books. Mainly DC (Superman et al.). A lot of the stories involved aliens. So one day I asked my mother about aliens and she assured me that they did not exist. And I accepted that. Then one day, the Government had a public service commercial that reminded all aliens of their annual requirement to go the post office to register with the government. Mom!!!! You told me that they don't exist!!!! As adults, we have learned to view the world in a certain manner. When we talk with our children, we need to keep in mind that they most likely are viewing those same things in a different manner.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
im in the same situation as you although i'm the believer and my husband isnt. We respect each others views and he teach's the kids (3, 9 & 13) his views and I teach them mine.
this is a win win in my view because the kids get both sides of the story and I know they will make their own minds up as they get older. The strangest thing about my husband and I is that he is happy for them to believe in santa clause and the easter bunny whereas I have always taught them that santa and all that are not real and have never allowed the kids to participate in those customs...its a little ironic really
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onifre Member (Idle past 2951 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
whereas I have always taught them that santa and all that are not real and have never allowed the kids to participate in those customs Not to question how you parent, but I'm curious why you don't allow them to participate? It seems kind of contradictory to the "I know they will make up their own minds" view. It's kinda like you are making it up for them. In my case, I don't believe in god, Jesus, or that anything in the Christian Bible is a true account of the earths history, much less, that any of those things are real (just like with you and Santa, etc). But if I didn't allow them to participate in church activities with their mom, that would be a form of control and indoctrination, don't you think? And contradictory to the "let them make up their own minds" philosophy...IMO. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
onifire writes: But if I didn't allow them to participate in church activities with their mom, that would be a form of control and indoctrination, don't you think? And contradictory to the "let them make up their own minds" philosophy...IMO. the difference with those particular customs is that we know for an absolute cirtainty that they are not real...santa claus the easter bunny etc are 100% fabricated and i've always told them that so they've never been tricked into believing that these are true I've never had a christmas tree in my house so in this way i dont let them participate....when they are adults they may choose to participate and that will be up to them but why should I trick them into believing such things when I know them to be fake? If i want my kids to grow to be honest people, i think i have to be honest with them first dont I?
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 735 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
but why should I trick them into believing such things when I know them to be fake? Indeed. Mad Kally, a poster on a forum long ago, observed, "God is Santa Claus for adults."
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onifre Member (Idle past 2951 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
the difference with those particular customs is that we know for an absolute cirtainty that they are not real...santa claus the easter bunny etc are 100% fabricated and i've always told them that so they've never been tricked into believing that these are true I agree, and I never wanted to tell them they were real either. And they don't believe they exist now (11-13) so there's no need addressing the issue with them. But Christmas doesn't have to involve Santa, at all. That could be your choice. Does your husband want to celebrate Christmas? However, the point was that their mom did feel it was harmless to carry-on with these traditions, and since I didn't want to lead them in any one direction, but to let them go in all directions and see what they liked best, I steped back and let their mom expose them to those traditions of hers. Now, likewise when I speak to them about atheism and the arguments against god, she steps back and lets me do my thing. Neither of us dictating what direction they should go, and allowing them to be exposed to all of it.
but why should I trick them into believing such things when I know them to be fake? I guess I could say the same for god, right? But what would be the point? And like I said above, they'll eventually find out on their own that Santa and the Easter bunny aren't real. But they can still celebrate in the traditions; You're JW so I imagine you don't celebrate Halloween, Christmas (which doesn't have to involve Santa at all), Thanksgiving, Birth Days, 4th of July, etc. But none of those are about belief in anything, they're just traditional festive events. Does your husband want to do anything of those things? That was the point, to let them be exposed to both sides. - Oni
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
onifre writes: But Christmas doesn't have to involve Santa, at all. That could be your choice. Does your husband want to celebrate Christmas? yes he does, and yes he does his family do the christmas thing and we do go with him, his family buy the kids presents (but they respect my position and so dont wrap the gifts in christmas paper) we go for my husbands sake though.
onifre writes: But none of those are about belief in anything, they're just traditional festive events. Does your husband want to do anything of those things? we dont have halloween or 4th of July in australia, so he doesnt do any of those. Christmas & easter & birthdays are the the main festivals in australia. My husband says the same thing to me, that they are not religious celebrations and therefore should not be an issue. But the thing is that for JW's they are religious celebrations becuase the roots of them stem from pagan religons. for a JW the important thing is to keep free of all idolotrous forms of worship...this includes things are are related to false religious practices and ideas.Easter has a connection with the Babylonian goddess Astarte and the worship of fertility or in other words sex worship. Christmas is rooted in pagan sunworship and even birthday customs come from the pagans fear of demons. the birthday celebration was a religous celebration to keep the person safe from demons. so while i know that people today dont view these things as religous in nature, they really are. Being a JW is about being faithful to Jehovah...anything that detracts from the worship of him is idolatry. My husband thinks its silly too, but oh well lol Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3101 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge. Yes, there is a God. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no God! There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseenable in the world. You tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear apart. Only faith, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Your little friends are wrong. There is a God. There is irony here for those who understand where I derived this article and made a few small but critical changes. Anyone want to venture a guess One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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Izanagi Member (Idle past 5217 days) Posts: 263 Joined: |
Dear Editor: I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus. Papa says "If you see it in The Sun it's so." Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus? Virginia O'Hanlon. I like the response letter. The editor doesn't come out and say that Santa doesn't exist. Instead, he forgoes the simplistic answer and makes it a philosophical issue. I think that the ideas embedded in our beliefs are more important than if our beliefs are real. Is Santa real? It doesn't matter because Santa, as modeled after St. Nicholas, represents generosity. Doesn't knowing that your generosity made someone happy make you happy as well? Santa represents an idea and the idea behind Santa is probably more important than any question of the physical existence of Santa. That's why it should not matter what the answer to the question of God's physical existence is. Whether God is physically real or not, the idea behind God* - to lead a good life - is more important. *: I am assuming the more benevolent God of the NT, not the fire and brimstone God of the OT; that is, love, forgiveness, justice, compassion, wisdom, and other feel-good ideas are what God represents. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given. It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott ---------------------------------------- Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy ---------------------------------------- You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
The letter to Virginia -- and no I didn't google it (yet)
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3101 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Iz writes: I like the response letter. The editor doesn't come out and say that Santa doesn't exist. Instead, he forgoes the simplistic answer and makes it a philosophical issue. Bingo. My point exactly. The answer to "Daddy, is God real" is not as simple as one might be lead to believe. God is real to those who want to believe he is real, just as much as Santa Claus is real to those who to believe.
I think that the ideas embedded in our beliefs are more important than if our beliefs are real. Is Santa real? It doesn't matter because Santa, as modeled after St. Nicholas, represents generosity. Doesn't knowing that your generosity made someone happy make you happy as well? Santa represents an idea and the idea behind Santa is probably more important than any question of the physical existence of Santa. Exactly. I like the way you think Iz. To the human race, God is real and the affects of this have shaped civilization for thousands of years. Since to much of modern humanity, God (and as Izanagi poignantly points out, the "good and decent" God of the Bible) symbolizes that which is good and moral in the world, the question has to be asked: How long will humanity continue to believe in God and what are the ramifications if they stop believing. How will the affect our moral compass and our judeochristian values. Or will this be just another false belief that humanity casts off in their forward progress of technology and greater human rights for all. I am not sure what the answer is but I have to agree with Izanagi's point below:
Iz writes: That's why it should not matter what the answer to the question of God's physical existence is. Whether God is physically real or not, the idea behind God* - to lead a good life - is more important. *: I am assuming the more benevolent God of the NT, not the fire and brimstone God of the OT; that is, love, forgiveness, justice, compassion, wisdom, and other feel-good ideas are what God represents Watch out, you may be making a god of your own making not the god depicted i.e. the Bible. It is readily evident that the nature of God has and will continue to change as the mores of our cultures change. In other words God changes because we change. Not the other way around. If humanity has to latch onto the values of judeochristianity in order to survive than so be it. However, fundamentalist extremism on any religious front I believe is an attempt to slow down the slow march of human rights and equality. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
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Lithodid-Man Member (Idle past 2931 days) Posts: 504 From: Juneau, Alaska, USA Joined: |
Hi Brit,
Thanks for a very interesting topic! We had similar issues with our little one. My wife and I decided that we would not 'indoctrinate' our son in either belief or disbelief, we simply never discussed gods (including the Easter Bunny or the Great Sleigh Pilot) around him and figured when old enough he would bring it up. Right at the beginning of second grade, at age 7, he brought it up (the previous Christmas he noted to us that some of his classmates believe in a pretend-person named Santa Claus). He again informed us that several of his classmates believed in an imaginary person called God. We explained at that time that that is some people's belief, but not ours. We also told him that that belief is very important to some people and something he should look into and study as he gets older. Then this past March we get contacted by a very hesitant teacher who reported that our little boy had polled a number of classmates about their belief in God, then informed the believers that God is a make believe story and just like Santa Claus! It was one of those "Holy uncomfortable, batman!" moments. (just one point - we have never made the God/Santa comparison, it was his own extrapolation) So my wife and I had a very interesting yet difficult talk with our son. We 'officially' told him that neither us believe in God, that we are called atheists, etc. However, we were in the odd position of having to explain the importance of God to some people and how it isn't right to try to change his classmate's beliefs. THAT led to him posing the even more difficult question of why, if his friends are believing something that is probably not real, shouldn't he help them by telling them this fact? We resorted to the authoritarian cop-out, and told him that he simply should not do that and he will understand why and when it is appropriate when he gets older. Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?" Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true" Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?" Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
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onifre Member (Idle past 2951 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
yes he does, and yes he does LOL - this must be fun during the holidays.
his family do the christmas thing and we do go with him, his family buy the kids presents (but they respect my position and so dont wrap the gifts in christmas paper) we go for my husbands sake though.
That's cool, but I would also say that you go for the kids sake as well, if the end result is to expose them to all of it and then have them formulate their own opinons.
we dont have halloween or 4th of July in australia, so he doesnt do any of those. - Just noticed you're from Australia. As an aside, do you have anything similar to Halloween over there? I know many parts of the world don't celebrate it per se but have a simliar "day of the dead" festival - or something like that.
But the thing is that for JW's they are religious celebrations becuase the roots of them stem from pagan religons. Oh - Well in that case, many things stem from pagan tradition. In fact, government stems from pagan religions. Think of the Greeks and their influences on modern politics.
Easter has a connection with the Babylonian goddess Astarte and the worship of fertility or in other words sex worship. Christmas is rooted in pagan sunworship and even birthday customs come from the pagans fear of demons. the birthday celebration was a religous celebration to keep the person safe from demons. Have you researched this? As far as Christmas is concerned, it's impossible to be from pagan sunworship if the origin of the word "Christmas" is about 1000 years after Christ. And Santa Claus is on about 150 years old or so. I think what you're refering to is "winter festivals" common in Roman and Greek traditions - which share a common tradition with the traditions of Christmas, but not representative of the same holiday. Similarities are the gift giving and decorations, etc. But the significance of Christmas has always been to celebrate the birth of Christ - whether accurate or not. The winter months were always used for celebration because there wasn't much agricultural work to be done, thus many similarities can be found with any winter festival. But it's not the same nor a derivative of it - I'm curious how you came to this conclusion? As far as Easter, I think your issue is not with what it represents but with the name Easter. That's the problem with this traditon is that the different cultures named it something different, and that's where the connections to greek gods/godesses etc., are made. But the holiday itself has it's own definition: the celebration of the death and resurrection of Christ. Also, and this is important to note, Easter is a moveable feast, which basically means it has no fixed day it should be celebrated on. - Here again I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that it was pagan? And with the birthdays, why does it have to be anything other than a personal recogition of the birth of your child/husband/friend/etc? Why make any connection to anything? In fact, rituals celebrating ones birth even pre-date religions.
Being a JW is about being faithful to Jehovah...anything that detracts from the worship of him is idolatry. Not to question your faith and it's traditions, but it seems like these things were determined by people interpreting scriptures and cultures, and not so much the word of Jehovah.
My husband thinks its silly too, but oh well lol As long as it works out in a fair manner for the kids in the end, IMHO, that's all that matters. - Oni
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1025 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Have you researched this? As far as Christmas is concerned, it's impossible to be from pagan sunworship if the origin of the word "Christmas" is about 1000 years after Christ. And Santa Claus is on about 150 years old or so. I think what you're refering to is "winter festivals" common in Roman and Greek traditions - which share a common tradition with the traditions of Christmas, but not representative of the same holiday. Similarities are the gift giving and decorations, etc. But the significance of Christmas has always been to celebrate the birth of Christ - whether accurate or not. The winter months were always used for celebration because there wasn't much agricultural work to be done, thus many similarities can be found with any winter festival. But it's not the same nor a derivative of it - I'm curious how you came to this conclusion? I think this all depends how you're defining 'derivative'. Christmas Day was selected to fall on the same day as pagan festvals, and I very much doubt there was a sudden discontinuity in people's celebrations as Europe moved to Christianity. The same midwinter festival simply evolved as people's religion changed and so their explanations for celebrating shifted, and new elements were brought in to represent Christian beliefs. The same process is happening with Christmas' progression to a secular festival for many people nowadays. This said, I honestly doubt that God would mind. If your purpose is to celebrate the birth of Christ, he'd surely be aware of that and appreciate the intention. It always seemed deeply unfair to me as a child that whilst the Muslims, Hindus and irreligious alike all joined in at Christmas, the Jehovah's Witness kids weren't allowed. Edited by caffeine, : Deleted 'Saturnalia' - I should check my facts before posting instead of relying on vague memories.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4930 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Onifre writes: As an aside, do you have anything similar to Halloween over there? I know many parts of the world don't celebrate it per se but have a simliar "day of the dead" festival - or something like that. no we dont have anything like halloween. Our celebrations are our public holidays, Australia Day (1st landings in australia), Anzac Day (war), Queens Birthday, Easter, Christmas & the Melbourne Cup (horserace)
onifre writes: Oh - Well in that case, many things stem from pagan tradition. In fact, government stems from pagan religions. Think of the Greeks and their influences on modern politics. thats true...interestingly JW's dont vote in politics.
onifre writes: Have you researched this? As far as Christmas is concerned, it's impossible to be from pagan sunworship if the origin of the word "Christmas" is about 1000 years after Christ. And Santa Claus is on about 150 years old or so. i have looked into it here are some quotes:
quote: The church of Rome actually hijacked a Roman celebration. The Romans’ favorite festival was Saturnalia, which began on December 17 and ended with the ‘birthday of the unconquered sun’ on December 25. Somewhere in the second quarter of the fourth century, the church of Rome decided December 25 would be the day to celebrate the birthday of the ‘sun of righteousness' Jesus.It didnt matter that Jesus was not born in December but they likely saw it as a way to be accepted by the pagans...or as a way to turn the pagans attention away from their own religions. The chuch wanted converts and this was perhaps one way to get them. onifre writes: As far as Easter, I think your issue is not with what it represents but with the name Easter. That's the problem with this traditon is that the different cultures named it something different, and that's where the connections to greek gods/godesses etc., are made. But the holiday itself has it's own definition: the celebration of the death and resurrection of Christ. Also, and this is important to note, Easter is a moveable feast, which basically means it has no fixed day it should be celebrated on. - Here again I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that it was pagan? I understand that Easter is to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Yet the customs that go along with Easter have very little do do with Christ, ie hot cross buns, eggs, rabbits, new clothes, and so forth. These have no association with Christ but they do have a long association with the spring of the year.
quote: About hot cross buns
The Encyclopdia Britannica (1959 Edition), Vol. 4, p. 381. writes:
Like the Greeks, the Romans ate bread marked with a cross ... at public sacrifices, such bread being usually purchased at the doors of the temple and then taken in with thema custom alluded to by St.Paul in 1Cor. x. 28. The cross-bread was eaten by pagan Saxons in honour of Easter, their goddess of light. The Mexicans and Peruvians are shown to have had a similar custom. The custom, in fact, was practically universal, and the early Church adroitly adopted the practice, grafting it on to the Eucharist and so giving us the hot crossbun. About Easter Eggs
The Catholic Encyclopedia writes:
The custom may have its origin in paganism, for a great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. Vol. 5, pp. 225-227 Concerning the Easter bunny, this same religious authority states: The Easter Rabbit lays the eggs, for which reason they are hidden in a nest or in the garden. The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility. Vol. 5, pp. 225-227 Even the early Easter sunrise service is not without pagan antecedents. According to old superstition, the sun rising on Easter morning dances in the heavens; this belief has been traced to old heathen festivals of spring, when the spectators danced in honor to the sun. The Encyclopdia Britannica (1959 Edition), Vol. 7, p. 531. And the same must be said of the impressive ceremony that takes place throughout Christendom on the day before Easter in which new fire is blessed and certain candles and lamps are lit. A detailed description of this ceremony includes the following: The obtaining and blessing of the new fire is probably a rite of Celtic or even pagan origin, incorporated in the Gallican Church service of the eighth century. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 7, p. 438 onifre writes: And with the birthdays, why does it have to be anything other than a personal recogition of the birth of your child/husband/friend/etc? Why make any connection to anything? In fact, rituals celebrating ones birth even pre-date religions. i know birthdays seem to be harmless fun and this is the biggest point of contention between my husband and I.The interesting thing about birthdays is that the early christians were opposed to them. That is likely due to the nature of the celebrations in their day. An example is that the early church 'father' Origen, wrote in a homily on Leviticus xii 2, that "none of the saints can be found who ever held a feast or a banquet upon his birthday, or rejoiced on the day when his son or his daughter was born. But sinners rejoice and make merry on such days." I dont consider Origen to be an inspired writer, but what he wrote was factual about the views the christians held at that time and therefore I can safely conclude that the early christians did not participate in birthday celebrations. Even the Ancient Jews did not celebrate birthdays. In the Bible there is no instance of birthday celebrations among the Jews themselves for they regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship. This is understandable because the nations around them were practices of false worship and it seems that birthdays were a part of their customs, the very customs that the jews viewed as religious in nature and opposed to their God. I know birthdays are not religous in nature today, but its about the roots of the customs. We can dress any celebration up in a different costume but the roots remain and I must view the celebration in light of what i know about its roots. Early christians did not celebrate birthdays, nor did Jesus... also, christians are mean to be followers of Christ...would i be following his example if I practiced customs that he did not practice?
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