Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 157 (532264)
10-22-2009 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Jazzns
10-20-2009 11:10 AM


Lo And Behold, The Sealed Book
Jazzns writes:
On this one point and this one point only, how can you support that this order to "shut up" the prophecy supports only a futurist interpretation?
First, the "shut up" prophecy of Daniel is "sealed" for the end times.
Last night I woke up in the wee hours and got thinking about the sealed book that is aluded to in Daniel. Six or so centuries (depending on how you date Daniel), toward the end of the 1st century AD, lo and behold the NT prophet John is given revelation from the messianic prince of princes, Jesus Christ. (as per Revelation 1:1)
Lo and behold, in chapter five God is seen sitting on his majestic throne with a sealed book in his right hand, sealed with seven seals. With a loud voice an angel asks who is worty to open the seals. The chapter goes on to explain that it is no other than Jesus Christ, slain lamb, slain for the sins of the people who opens the seals, one by one for John to write in his prophecy of end time events.
Whoever bothers to read the events of these seals will read in the sixth seal of the darkening of the sun and moon and the falling stars and the severe persecution of the saints of God, all of which the prophet Daniel and all corroborating prophets aluded to in his prophecy relative to the end times.
The Book of Revelation is a prophecy at large of the Christian era, the Letters To The Seven Churches being a dispensational prophecy of the church all of the way up to the present luke warm (Laodicean) era. Then in Rev 5 comes the seals depicting the Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse, the persecution/tribulation of the saints of God (as per Daniel) and the celestial events alluded to by Daniel and other OT prophets.
The last (7th) seal becomes the 7 trumpets, the 7th trumpet being the 7 bowls of God's wrath, so essentially the seals cover the entire Revelation of Jesus Christ/messianic prince of princes, as revealed to John the prophet.
What lends credence to the unsealing in the NT revelation is things like the on track restoration of Israel as a nation and the 10 horned beast empire which Daniel alluded to. John's updated (unsealed) version depicts things like global government/new world order, advocated by UN entities, including our present administration, cashless monetary systems and speaking images accessable to all nations, tribes and toungs, i.e. TV tech etc. None of this new data could have been gleaned from Daniel's prophecy.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Jazzns, posted 10-20-2009 11:10 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Jazzns, posted 10-22-2009 11:33 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 137 of 157 (532268)
10-22-2009 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
10-21-2009 10:16 PM


Re: Sealing The Prophecy
I'm still waiting for Jazzns answer to that. Perhaps you want to take a crack at it.
I have already responded to that. It is in fact quite possible that Daniel was wrong and that is an acceptable answer to me. The preterist interpretation would have to either accept that or go further into double fulfillment or some other kind of twisting which I feel is just as reasonable as the methods you are using to arrive at your interpretation.
It doesn't change the parts of Daniel that do in fact agree quite well with a preterist interpretation. In my mind, there are basically 2 choices.
1. Daniel is a cohesive description of a single, historically referenced event that just happens to get the last little bit wrong.
2. Daniel is a non-cohesive description of a variety of events by which the internal connections are destroyed to achieve some theological end or "correctness".
The kinds of "facts" you are using to support your interpretation just are simply not convincing to me Buz. Your welcome to continue to appologize for your interpretation but really I don't see the point. You just don't GET what I am trying to understand here. I am not sure if it is because I am not asking it well enough or you just simply don't care about the concerns that I am having. Unless someone else can comment on if I am not being coherant in what I am asking then I only have my own opinion on that issue which is simply that we are not connecting at all.
If you would like to win this debate on the theological grounds then I conceed. I am just simply uninterested in propping up any particular theology. Happy?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 10-21-2009 10:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 138 of 157 (532269)
10-22-2009 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Buzsaw
10-22-2009 11:04 AM


Re: Lo And Behold, The Sealed Book
Even IF the "sealed" book in Revelations is in reference to Daniel, you still have not addressed the point I made which is that John the Revelator had available to him the Book of Daniel.
As a relevant aside, I seem to remember reading that Daniel was included into the Jewish canon around the same time Revelations was written. Does anyone know if that is true?
If John wanted to be harmonious with Daniel, which it does seem like he was trying to do, there is nothing supernatural about the fact that he could simply READ Daniel and reference elements in it properly for his own Apocalypse which also has a valid preterist interpretation IMO.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2009 11:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Buzsaw, posted 10-22-2009 12:46 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 157 (532281)
10-22-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jazzns
10-22-2009 11:33 AM


Re: Lo And Behold, The Sealed Book
Jazzins writes:
If John wanted to be harmonious with Daniel, which it does seem like he was trying to do, there is nothing supernatural about the fact that he could simply READ Daniel and reference elements in it properly for his own Apocalypse which also has a valid preterist interpretation IMO.
Jazzns, did you even read or think about my pertinent points previously posted?
Buz's pertinent point writes:
What lends credence to the unsealing in the NT revelation is things like the on track restoration of Israel as a nation and the 10 horned beast empire which Daniel alluded to. John's updated (unsealed) version depicts things like global government/new world order, advocated by UN entities, including our present administration, cashless monetary systems and speaking images accessable to all nations, tribes and tongues, i.e. TV tech etc. None of this new phenominal and observable data could have been gleaned from Daniel's prophecy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by Buzsaw, : fix spelling

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jazzns, posted 10-22-2009 11:33 AM Jazzns has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 140 of 157 (532557)
10-23-2009 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Jazzns
10-14-2009 2:38 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Jazzns writes:
So for me, as skeptic of your particular interpretation, there is absolutely no basis for me to simply accept 'bible chronology'. I would argue that it is not even a requirement of Christianity to accept a 'bible chronology'. The biggest reason I can think of why you wouldn't want to make that a pillar of your faith is simply that the bible's chronology is demonstrably wrong.
I'm sure you're aware that different nations have used different calanders, well the bible presents a 'calander' of its own...it gives a chronology that can be likened to a calander and its timing is impecable.
Jazzns writes:
Since I reject inerrancy, I also reject the chronology.
do you know anything about the chronology of the bible and how the events are timed? Can you give me an example of the chonology that you dont agree with?
Jazzns writes:
But this isn't even true! You picked the event you want the prophecy to match and then you twist the prophecy to match that event. If you plainly and simply read Daniel at its face value you absolutely do not get your interpretation. I am not saying that you are wrong, but you ARE IN FACT saying that Daniel has to more complex than a bald faced reading so that it will line up with the dates that YOU LIKE.
the bible is not meant to be easy to understand...even Daniel who wrote the prophecy openly admitted that he did not understand it. The reason for this is because man does not see things the way that God sees them. To understand it, you have to think like God. We think in physical terms...this is why bible writers often wrote in terms of physical things as a way to aid understanding. However, some things were obviously written in such a way that even the writer did not understand it.
Jazzns writes:
Being discredited is not a badge of honor! If there are good and VALID arguments against my belief then I am an idiot to continue with that belief. Did you mean to say something else here!?
no i didnt mean to say something else here. Bible chronology is a legitimate way to understand the timing of ancient history. Secular historians often dont agree with each other and they often contradict each other...bible chronology may be discredited by secular sources, but who is to say the secular sources are correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Jazzns, posted 10-14-2009 2:38 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2009 9:56 AM Peg has replied
 Message 142 by Jazzns, posted 10-26-2009 11:00 AM Peg has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 157 (532765)
10-26-2009 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Peg
10-23-2009 11:01 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Hi Peg. A penny for your thoughts pertaining my POV prophecy points pertaining to Jazzins OP.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Peg, posted 10-23-2009 11:01 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 8:27 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 142 of 157 (532776)
10-26-2009 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Peg
10-23-2009 11:01 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
do you know anything about the chronology of the bible and how the events are timed? Can you give me an example of the chonology that you dont agree with?
Sure. The creation event.
the bible is not meant to be easy to understand...
That goes against everything I have ever been told by people preaching to me. The Bible is supposed to be God's instructions for the common man. Or not so it seems....
even Daniel who wrote the prophecy openly admitted that he did not understand it. The reason for this is because man does not see things the way that God sees them. To understand it, you have to think like God. We think in physical terms...this is why bible writers often wrote in terms of physical things as a way to aid understanding. However, some things were obviously written in such a way that even the writer did not understand it.
Okay, then what makes your way the right way then? Why are the people who taught you not just as confused as Daniel? That is essentially what this thread is asking.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Peg, posted 10-23-2009 11:01 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2009 3:34 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 145 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 8:35 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 157 (532808)
10-26-2009 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jazzns
10-26-2009 11:00 AM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Jazzins writes:
That goes against everything I have ever been told by people preaching to me. The Bible is supposed to be God's instructions for the common man. Or not so it seems....
Jazzins, I have repeatedly tried to advise you that the deep things of scripture are not simple. One must do one's homework on the prophecies, corroborating the prophets and doing one's homework in order to come to accurate conclusions.
Among the gifts of the Holy Spirit are knowledge, teaching, prophecy, etc. There are novice peanut gallery Biblical prophecy skeptics and there are ardent Biblical scholars who do comprehensive research and study, corroborating the harmony of scripture, both OT and NT before arriving at conclusions.
This is suppose to be one of the primary functions of how the NT church is structured, with Christians assembling to teach and edify etc. Alas, the majority of churches totally ignore approximately 1/3 of the Bible, which is prophecy. Thus the prevailing ignorance.
As to the simple gospel of salvation, etc, yes, scripture is relatively simple, but when one delves into the prophecies, it appears that God purposely inspired them to be written with a measure of mystery.
II Timothy 2:16:
Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jazzns, posted 10-26-2009 11:00 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 8:44 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 144 of 157 (532836)
10-26-2009 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Buzsaw
10-26-2009 9:56 AM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Buzsaw writes:
Hi Peg. A penny for your thoughts pertaining my POV prophecy points pertaining to Jazzins OP
Hi buzsaw, I think you're right on track in that the prophecy of John in Revelation is also speaking about events that will transpire in the 'last days' or as Daniel says 'the end times'
They are definately linked in that Daniel wrote about things that would happen in the 'end times' and John wrote further things about what would happen in those times.
I wouldnt go so far as to say that the physical nation of Isreal will be restored though. You might recall that God said he would make a new nation for himself out of every tribe and people and tongue and they would worship him with spirit and truth...this is christianity, not natural isreal. It cannot be natural Isreal for the reason that they rejected the Messiah and in doing so they rejected God himself.
But Christianity has become the new nation of isreal and the restoration of that nation refers to its spiritual enlightenment and cleansing of true christianity during the last days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2009 9:56 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 145 of 157 (532837)
10-26-2009 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Jazzns
10-26-2009 11:00 AM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Jazzns writes:
Sure. The creation event.
in what way does the creation event have anything to do with chronology?
Jazzns writes:
That goes against everything I have ever been told by people preaching to me. The Bible is supposed to be God's instructions for the common man. Or not so it seems....
interpretation belongs to God, not to man...this is why the bible was written in symbolism. You know there are many interpretation of the bible, this is because there are many people who have interpreted it. However, there is only on true interpretation and that interpretation can only come from God. Jesus told his diciples that the holy spirit would guide their understanding. Find the group of christians who are being led by Gods holy spirit and you will find the truth.
Jazzns writes:
Okay, then what makes your way the right way then? Why are the people who taught you not just as confused as Daniel? That is essentially what this thread is asking.
I beleive that they are trully being led by Gods spirit. I have seen the things that they've accomplished and how they have cleaned the pagan ideas out of their teaching and how they live in accord with Gods laws.
but i can't convince you of that...its something that each person must examine for themselves to be convinced of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Jazzns, posted 10-26-2009 11:00 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 10-27-2009 3:12 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 146 of 157 (532838)
10-26-2009 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Buzsaw
10-26-2009 3:34 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Buzsaw writes:
As to the simple gospel of salvation, etc, yes, scripture is relatively simple, but when one delves into the prophecies, it appears that God purposely inspired them to be written with a measure of mystery.
I wish i could explain myself as well as you do.
If we recall the words of Joseph who interpreted the dreams of the Pharoah
"What the true God is doing he has caused Pharaoh to see
it helps us to see that understanding comes from God and God alone which is exactly why the bible was written with a measure of mystery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2009 3:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2009 11:05 PM Peg has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 157 (532856)
10-26-2009 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Peg
10-26-2009 8:44 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
I appreciate your reply, Peg, as well as the good work you do on behalf of creationism here at EvC. It is good to see that we are on the same page, for the most part on this topic.
Relative to Israel, the calling out from the nations most likely alludes to the fact the the messianic kingdom will be inclusive of some role by resurrected Christians since we are co-heirs with him who will rule and reign with him.
I suggest you do a thoughtful reading of Ezekiel 36 to 39, corroborated by most of the other major prophets of the OT which detail a futuristic restoration of Israel as a nation and messiah returning to the Mt of Olives etc. As well, imo, the phenominal regathering of a nation of people who were dispersed world wide for 19 centuries is too remarkable to have happened outside of divine intervention.
Zecharia 8:9 reads:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Note that he addresses the daughter of Jerusalem calling messiah/king their king. The kingdom will be global in scope, however with all nations subject to messiah's Zionistic global empire centered at Jerusalem.
Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would be occupied by gentiles until the times of the gentiles would end, in his Mat 24 and Luke 21 prophecy of his 2nd advent, implying that Jesusalem would in the end times be occupied by Jews (non-gentiles.
This is important relative to Daniel because both Jesus and Daniel corroborate with the other prophets that the end times/end of days would be futuristic both to Daniel and to Jesus/messiah.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 8:44 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 11:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 148 of 157 (532860)
10-26-2009 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Buzsaw
10-26-2009 11:05 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Buzsaw writes:
Relative to Israel, the calling out from the nations most likely alludes to the fact the the messianic kingdom will be inclusive of some role by resurrected Christians since we are co-heirs with him who will rule and reign with him.
yes absolutely, the diciples/Apostles were the ones to whom Jesus said at John 14:2 "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU."
For these christians to rule with Christ in heaven, they would have to die on earth and then be resurrected into their heavenly calling to reign with him.
Buzsaw writes:
I suggest you do a thoughtful reading of Ezekiel 36 to 39, corroborated by most of the other major prophets of the OT which detail a futuristic restoration of Israel as a nation and messiah returning to the Mt of Olives etc. As well, imo, the phenominal regathering of a nation of people who were dispersed world wide for 19 centuries is too remarkable to have happened outside of divine intervention.
I agree that the prophecies are most definitely about a 'restoration', however what benefit will a restored jerusalem be considering the Jews dont believe that the Messiah has been here, and considering they refused to follow the lead of the Messiah when he was here? Do you think that if Jesus presented himself again physically, they would all respond favorably?
personally I dont beleive that would happen which is why i doubt very much that God would still attempt to make a kingdom of Priests (Exodus 19:6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.) out of them. Most notable is the fact that the messiah had given the prospect of becoming a 'kingdom of Priests' to the newly formed christian converts.
John 1:11-12 "He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. 12However, as many as did receive him, to THEM he gave authority to become God’s children
Buzsaw writes:
The kingdom will be global in scope, however with all nations subject to messiah's Zionistic global empire centered at Jerusalem.
if Jesus established a heavenly kingdom, dont you think a global rulership would work better from that vantage point? Besides that, if the purpose was always to have an earthly center government/rulership, why does anyone need to go to heaven to rule as kings? What purpose would that serve?
Buzsaw writes:
Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would be occupied by gentiles until the times of the gentiles would end, in his Mat 24 and Luke 21 prophecy of his 2nd advent, implying that Jesusalem would in the end times be occupied by Jews (non-gentiles.
yes, but who is a 'jew'
According to Pauls understanding he said at Romans 2:28 "he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Paul was here saying that the person who serves God from the heart is a real Jew. And by a play on words he shows that such a one also receives praise from God for the word 'jew' means 'praise'
Also what did he say at Galatians 3:29?
"Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise"
According to God, a true Jew is one who belongs to Christ and who serves God out of love.
Buzsaw writes:
This is important relative to Daniel because both Jesus and Daniel corroborate with the other prophets that the end times/end of days would be futuristic both to Daniel and to Jesus/messiah
yes i totally agree with you on that.
Can I ask if you believe we are in the 'end times' now? or do you think they are still future?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Buzsaw, posted 10-26-2009 11:05 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2009 10:57 PM Peg has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 149 of 157 (532875)
10-27-2009 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Peg
10-26-2009 8:35 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
quote:
I beleive that they are trully being led by Gods spirit. I have seen the things that they've accomplished and how they have cleaned the pagan ideas out of their teaching and how they live in accord with Gods laws.
In other words you worship the Watchtower Society. That is why you feel that you can dismiss evidence of deception on the part of the Watchtower society by making baseless accusations against critics. That is why your idea of "looking at all the evidence" means "looking only at the evidence that the Watchtower Society would like you to see".
(see Message 93)
I submit that this obvious aversion to the truth is clear evidence that God has less to do with it than you say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 8:35 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Peg, posted 10-27-2009 3:53 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 150 of 157 (532880)
10-27-2009 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
10-27-2009 3:12 AM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
worshiping the WT society...does that require yearly pilgrimages to Brooklyn??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 10-27-2009 3:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 10-27-2009 4:04 AM Peg has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024