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Author Topic:   Daddy, is God real?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 15 of 34 (532555)
10-23-2009 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Briterican
10-23-2009 2:24 PM


Re: Thanks for the tips
I like the suggestion of "What do you think, sweetheart?" Puts the ball in her court and helps me figure out her degree of interest.
I have 2 kids and I think this is the best approach.
I am an atheist, but their mother is Christian. I knew she would speak to the about the christians version of the god concept, so I knew what they would believe about god if they in fact chose to believe. - It's good to understand what concept your child has about god. They may say "god is love" or something like that. Who knows.
They are now 13 and 10, the older is atheist the younger is a diest - by no indoctrination of any kind. In fact, they still go to church with their mother.
Whenever they asked about god I said "what do you think," and it sparked a critical conversation of the facts we knew about, just like if we were discussing a case for a trail.
One, this gets them interested in science, and two, it helps them approach ANY question critically and skeptically.
Good luck. And if you don't mind, I'd like to know how it went.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Briterican, posted 10-23-2009 2:24 PM Briterican has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Peg, posted 10-25-2009 8:15 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 18 of 34 (532663)
10-25-2009 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Peg
10-25-2009 8:15 AM


Re: Thanks for the tips
whereas I have always taught them that santa and all that are not real and have never allowed the kids to participate in those customs
Not to question how you parent, but I'm curious why you don't allow them to participate?
It seems kind of contradictory to the "I know they will make up their own minds" view. It's kinda like you are making it up for them.
In my case, I don't believe in god, Jesus, or that anything in the Christian Bible is a true account of the earths history, much less, that any of those things are real (just like with you and Santa, etc).
But if I didn't allow them to participate in church activities with their mom, that would be a form of control and indoctrination, don't you think? And contradictory to the "let them make up their own minds" philosophy...IMO.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Peg, posted 10-25-2009 8:15 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 2:15 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 21 of 34 (532770)
10-26-2009 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Peg
10-26-2009 2:15 AM


Re: Thanks for the tips
the difference with those particular customs is that we know for an absolute cirtainty that they are not real...santa claus the easter bunny etc are 100% fabricated and i've always told them that so they've never been tricked into believing that these are true
I agree, and I never wanted to tell them they were real either. And they don't believe they exist now (11-13) so there's no need addressing the issue with them. But Christmas doesn't have to involve Santa, at all. That could be your choice. Does your husband want to celebrate Christmas?
However, the point was that their mom did feel it was harmless to carry-on with these traditions, and since I didn't want to lead them in any one direction, but to let them go in all directions and see what they liked best, I steped back and let their mom expose them to those traditions of hers.
Now, likewise when I speak to them about atheism and the arguments against god, she steps back and lets me do my thing. Neither of us dictating what direction they should go, and allowing them to be exposed to all of it.
but why should I trick them into believing such things when I know them to be fake?
I guess I could say the same for god, right? But what would be the point?
And like I said above, they'll eventually find out on their own that Santa and the Easter bunny aren't real. But they can still celebrate in the traditions; You're JW so I imagine you don't celebrate Halloween, Christmas (which doesn't have to involve Santa at all), Thanksgiving, Birth Days, 4th of July, etc.
But none of those are about belief in anything, they're just traditional festive events. Does your husband want to do anything of those things?
That was the point, to let them be exposed to both sides.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 2:15 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 9:26 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 28 of 34 (532972)
10-27-2009 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peg
10-26-2009 9:26 PM


Re: Thanks for the tips
yes he does, and yes he does
LOL - this must be fun during the holidays.
his family do the christmas thing and we do go with him, his family buy the kids presents (but they respect my position and so dont wrap the gifts in christmas paper)
we go for my husbands sake though.
That's cool, but I would also say that you go for the kids sake as well, if the end result is to expose them to all of it and then have them formulate their own opinons.
we dont have halloween or 4th of July in australia, so he doesnt do any of those.
- Just noticed you're from Australia.
As an aside, do you have anything similar to Halloween over there? I know many parts of the world don't celebrate it per se but have a simliar "day of the dead" festival - or something like that.
But the thing is that for JW's they are religious celebrations becuase the roots of them stem from pagan religons.
Oh - Well in that case, many things stem from pagan tradition. In fact, government stems from pagan religions. Think of the Greeks and their influences on modern politics.
Easter has a connection with the Babylonian goddess Astarte and the worship of fertility or in other words sex worship.
Christmas is rooted in pagan sunworship and even birthday customs come from the pagans fear of demons. the birthday celebration was a religous celebration to keep the person safe from demons.
Have you researched this? As far as Christmas is concerned, it's impossible to be from pagan sunworship if the origin of the word "Christmas" is about 1000 years after Christ. And Santa Claus is on about 150 years old or so.
I think what you're refering to is "winter festivals" common in Roman and Greek traditions - which share a common tradition with the traditions of Christmas, but not representative of the same holiday.
Similarities are the gift giving and decorations, etc. But the significance of Christmas has always been to celebrate the birth of Christ - whether accurate or not.
The winter months were always used for celebration because there wasn't much agricultural work to be done, thus many similarities can be found with any winter festival. But it's not the same nor a derivative of it - I'm curious how you came to this conclusion?
As far as Easter, I think your issue is not with what it represents but with the name Easter. That's the problem with this traditon is that the different cultures named it something different, and that's where the connections to greek gods/godesses etc., are made. But the holiday itself has it's own definition: the celebration of the death and resurrection of Christ.
Also, and this is important to note, Easter is a moveable feast, which basically means it has no fixed day it should be celebrated on. - Here again I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that it was pagan?
And with the birthdays, why does it have to be anything other than a personal recogition of the birth of your child/husband/friend/etc? Why make any connection to anything? In fact, rituals celebrating ones birth even pre-date religions.
Being a JW is about being faithful to Jehovah...anything that detracts from the worship of him is idolatry.
Not to question your faith and it's traditions, but it seems like these things were determined by people interpreting scriptures and cultures, and not so much the word of Jehovah.
My husband thinks its silly too, but oh well lol
As long as it works out in a fair manner for the kids in the end, IMHO, that's all that matters.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 9:26 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by caffeine, posted 10-28-2009 4:56 AM onifre has replied
 Message 30 by Peg, posted 10-28-2009 5:25 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 32 of 34 (533040)
10-28-2009 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Peg
10-28-2009 5:25 AM


Re: Thanks for the tips
Our celebrations are our public holidays, Australia Day (1st landings in australia), Anzac Day (war), Queens Birthday, Easter, Christmas & the Melbourne Cup (horserace)
And as a JW you're not allowed to celebrate any?
thats true...interestingly JW's dont vote in politics.
Really? I didn't know that. I knew you didn't serve in the military (but enjoy the freedom provided by it ) but I didn't know you didn't vote. Hell I don't blame you. lol
i have looked into it here are some quotes:
Fair enough, you looked into it, but you seem to only side with the evidence that supports your opinion, and ignored the other evidence that contradicts it.
It didnt matter that Jesus was not born in December but they likely saw it as a way to be accepted by the pagans...or as a way to turn the pagans attention away from their own religions.
Curiously, what are you caling "pagans"...?
The definition of pagan would include any religion that isn't Abrahamic. So there isn't a group of "pagans" practicing "paganism".
Like I said, it was common to have winter festivals in all cultures. Once these festivals spread around to other nations, they then add their touch to it. So the origin of Easter or Christmas becomes vague and changes from culture to culture.
But this I guess is taking it too off-topic.
I understand that Easter is to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Yet the customs that go along with Easter have very little do do with Christ, ie hot cross buns, eggs, rabbits, new clothes, and so forth. These have no association with Christ but they do have a long association with the spring of the year.
I don't do any of those things for Easter, except maybe my kids color eggs and I hide them. That's my point though, you can make it personal and give your kids a different experience while still keeping to your beliefs but compromising with your husband.
The interesting thing about birthdays is that the early christians were opposed to them.
But they were in favor of slavery ... the also opposed women being equal to men (something I'm sure you would not agree with). Those people back then we very ignorant to ethics and morality (by todays standards), I think their judgment shouldn't be the basis for ones opinions these days.
would i be following his example if I practiced customs that he did not practice?
I wonder if Jesus ever used an ATM machine?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Peg, posted 10-28-2009 5:25 AM Peg has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 33 of 34 (533042)
10-28-2009 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by caffeine
10-28-2009 4:56 AM


Re: Pagan roots of festivals
Christmas Day was selected to fall on the same day as pagan festvals
I'll ask you the same question I asked Peg, What do you mean by "pagan"...?
And - Whats a "pagan" festival?
As I understand it, a "pagan" is considered anyone who doesn't follow the 3 Abrahamic religions.
This said, I honestly doubt that God would mind. If your purpose is to celebrate the birth of Christ, he'd surely be aware of that and appreciate the intention. It always seemed deeply unfair to me as a child that whilst the Muslims, Hindus and irreligious alike all joined in at Christmas, the Jehovah's Witness kids weren't allowed.
I completely agree. Especially when the reason for not celebrating is some vague orgin story of "pagan" rituals that the kid has no clue about. Nor is any of it relevant today. It seems a bit exaggerated to keep to that kind of opinion, influenced by 2000 year old stories.
But hey, to each his own.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by caffeine, posted 10-28-2009 4:56 AM caffeine has not replied

  
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