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Author Topic:   Does Death Pose Challenge To Abiogenesis
Theodoric
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Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 51 of 191 (533210)
10-29-2009 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Cedre
10-29-2009 11:08 AM


All we need is magic
Yes to be sure that is what happens, doctors bring the person back to life that is to say re-insert the "spirit"
Then why should doctors bother with medical school? For that matter why don't we just eliminated doctors all together. Prayer should be plenty sufficient for everything.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Cedre, posted 10-29-2009 11:08 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Cedre, posted 10-29-2009 11:19 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 56 of 191 (533221)
10-29-2009 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Cedre
10-29-2009 11:19 AM


Re: All we need is magic
Prayer should be plenty sufficient for everything, but the success of prayer depends on faith and not many folks have that so I guess doctor's are greatly needed.
Wow.
So you are willing to fore go all medical treatment and solely rely on prayer?
BTW, studies would show you wrong.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Cedre, posted 10-29-2009 11:19 AM Cedre has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 108 of 191 (533341)
10-30-2009 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Cedre
10-30-2009 8:52 AM


Weight of the soul? I think not.
Your link is no good.
Read here for an explanation of this experiment that was done in 1907.
Plenty has been made of this because of a movie 21 Grams that came out a few years ago.
quote:
Despite the poor accuracy of his scales, the huge variability in his data, and the all-too-few people studied, MacDougall's experiment was also frustrated by the tricky skill of pinpointing the exact time of death. He was repeatedly challenged as to why the weight change on death appeared to take longer in some patients than others. To rebut the doubters, MacDougall wrote: "The soul's weight is removed from the body virtually at the instant of the last breath, though in persons of sluggish temperament, it may remain in the body for a full minute."
Source
quote:
Firstly, six (as in the six dying patients) is not a large enough sample size. When I studied statistics, my lecturer convinced me that, concerning people preferring one cola to another, "8 out of 10 is not statistically significant, but 16 out of 20 is".
Second, he got "good" results (ie, the patient irreversibly lost weight at the moment of death) from just one of the six patients, not all six! Two of the results had to be excluded because of "technical difficulties". One patient's death did show a drop in weight of about three-eighths of an ounce - but this later reversed itself! Two of the other patients registered an immediate loss of weight at the moment of death, but then their weight dropped again a few minutes later. (Does this mean that they died twice!?) Only one of the six patients showed a sudden and non-reversible loss of weight of three-fourths of an ounce (21 grams).
The third problem is a little more subtle. Even today, with all of our sophisticated technology, it is still sometimes very difficult to determine the precise moment of death. And which death did he mean - cellular death, brain death, physical death, heart death, legal death, etc? How could Dr. Duncan MacDougall be so precise back in 1907? And anyhow, how accurate and precise were his scales back in 1907?
Source
And from the British Journal of Sports Medicine
quote:
So what can we learn from this subject. First, bad science will often be published providing it is sensational (note the converse does not hold). Second, always do press interviewsyour fame will be magnified by the amount of press space devoted to your claim, however bogus.
Hardly any proof for the existence of a soul.
This is what confounds me about fundies and creationists. They excoriate science and the scientific method ever day, but cling to any semblance of science to justify their beliefs. I thought the 'soul' was an immaterial entity. If the 'soul' had weight than it must have other physical properties too. Why couldn't he see it or feel it?
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 8:52 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 9:26 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 109 of 191 (533342)
10-30-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Cedre
10-30-2009 9:16 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
How about a dead heart? Are you saying the soul is in the heart not in the brain?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 9:16 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 9:28 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 120 of 191 (533357)
10-30-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Cedre
10-30-2009 9:26 AM


Re: Weight of the soul? I think not.
Please explain why criticisms are unfounded. I mean other than you said so.
1) only 6 subjects
2) 2 had to be discarded
3) 2 showed immediate drop in weight that increased over time
4) 1 showed showed an immediate drop that reversed right away but later recurred
5) determining exact moment of death
McDougall's later conclusion just show he was trying to mnake the results fit.
For example.
quote:
MacDougall said the moment in question was when the person exhaled the final breath and would try to explain away the inconsistencies between the drop rate by claiming that "the soul's weight is removed from the body virtually at the instant of last breath, though in persons of sluggish temperament it may remain in the body a full minute. Of course, one wonders how he was able to determine that as the reason (or what qualifies as a "sluggish temperament"). Assumptions are at every step of his experiment and are later used to make the evidence conform to the "theory."
How about backing things up instead of justing making unjustified comments.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Cedre, posted 10-30-2009 9:26 AM Cedre has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 128 of 191 (533378)
10-30-2009 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by caffeine
10-30-2009 12:36 PM


Deus ex Machina??
It seems that from Cedre's definition, the machines would be putting the life spirit into the brain dead body.
Extrapolating from that, it would seem that in Cedre's world, machines are a god.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by caffeine, posted 10-30-2009 12:36 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 148 of 191 (533495)
10-31-2009 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Cedre
10-31-2009 4:38 AM


Plants and other kingdoms
You said bacteria have a 'spirit'. Do the other kingdoms?
Protista?
Plantae?
Fungi?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Cedre, posted 10-31-2009 4:38 AM Cedre has not replied

  
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