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Author Topic:   Teach both evolution and creationism say 54% of Britons
Larni
Member (Idle past 154 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 16 of 31 (533576)
11-01-2009 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by MikeDeich
10-31-2009 11:17 PM


Hi Mike, welcome to the fray!
Intelligent design can be presented without religion.
The problem actually starts here because without the special pleading that religion assumes you are stuck with the problem of infinite regression.
So the class is even shorter because it can't get past this issue unless it invokes a bootstrapping supernatural entity.

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MikeDeich
Junior Member (Idle past 4549 days)
Posts: 24
From: Rosario, Argentina
Joined: 10-31-2009


Message 17 of 31 (533625)
11-01-2009 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Larni
11-01-2009 8:56 AM


Thanks for the welcome, Im glad to have discovered this site. I certainly agree that teaching ID in schools would ultimately lead to the bottom line of infinite regression, but thats where it ends. Certainly ID supporters want this to somehow "prove" the supernatural source. This doesnt necessarily have to support any religion. I see faith in a god & faith in a religion as completely different, just my opinion. I guess I just feel that giving a little lip service for the sake of equal treatment, would shut up hard line creationists.....but then again giving an inch & they try to take a mile could be a likely scenario.

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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4290 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 18 of 31 (533642)
11-02-2009 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
10-28-2009 9:09 AM


I wonder if anyone here knows what the contemporary UK science curriculum is like?
I became quite concerned about a year ago when I had my English students analyse adverts in groups. I gave one group an ad with a picture of a monkey and a washing machine, and it was claiming that the washing machine had "evolved" into a better model. The group didn't get it, and we're talking 16-year-olds here. "Evolution? Oh yeah, I think I've heard that word somewhere before . . ."
Edited by Kitsune, : No reason given.

former username "LindaLou"

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4932 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 19 of 31 (533646)
11-02-2009 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Kitsune
11-02-2009 2:50 AM


Hi LindaLou
That's interesting but doesn't really surprise me.
Mind you, I'd be impressed if there is any teaching of Evolution in schools? Is it meant to be part of the curriculum?
I left school in the 80s and I'm quite sure that the subject of Evolution was never covered at all. I'd heard of it, but only had the most basic and partly incorrect understanding of the subject.

This message is a reply to:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4932 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 20 of 31 (533647)
11-02-2009 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by MikeDeich
10-31-2009 11:17 PM


Hi Mike
Thanks for your reply.
I largely agree with you. I'm all in favour of children being presented with alternative theories and encouraged to think for themselves, as long as it's in the right class.

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Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4290 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 21 of 31 (533648)
11-02-2009 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-02-2009 4:14 AM


I can't remember studying evolution in my American high school either. This really needs to change because it's how ignorance is perpetuated, which makes it easier for creationists to get people to believe their nonsense. So much for it being rammed down children's throats in school as they usually claim, eh?
Edited by Kitsune, : No reason given.

former username "LindaLou"

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4932 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 22 of 31 (533650)
11-02-2009 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Kitsune
11-02-2009 4:25 AM


Too right!

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Larni
Member (Idle past 154 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 23 of 31 (533652)
11-02-2009 5:14 AM


Not rammed down our throats.
I did A level biology (twice!) and I can't remember being taught evolution.
I learned most about it in A level psychology and (believe it or not) this very site.
So I agree; it's not like it's being rammed down our throats.
Edited by Larni, : added title

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 24 of 31 (533654)
11-02-2009 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Kitsune
11-02-2009 2:50 AM


Evolution in British schools
It was about 8 years ago since I studied biology in school, but I remember the coverage of evolution being cursory at best. As far as I recall it consisted of a brief explanation of natural selection, supported by the example of melanistic moths. The words 'homology' and 'analogy' were explained and we all looked at pictures of pentadactyl limbs in bats, humans, dolphins and a couple of other animals. Then we saw some 19th century cartoons of Darwin and talked about his explanation for the evolution of the eye.
My memory might be clouded by distance, but that was it as far as I can recall. To make things worse, you have options as to where to focus your study once you reach the age of 14 in the UK. I was doing the 'seperate sciences' curriculum, which meant my biology course was more detailed than that of most students.
After writing this, I read around the internet a bit, and it seems that a new science curriculum was implemented in 2006. Anyone here just finished school in the UK or teach science there?

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 25 of 31 (533961)
11-04-2009 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-02-2009 4:22 AM


I'm all in favour of children being presented with alternative theories and encouraged to think for themselves, as long as it's in the right class.
I can't think of any creationists/IDists who would allow this. That's the problem with the whole thing: for us, it's all or none. For the creationists/IDists, they don't want their children being "brainwashed" with other religions (I see this firsthand with my girlfriend).
Edited by hooah212002, : sig not showing up....
Edited by hooah212002, : changed "christians" to "creationists/IDists".

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 28 by caffeine, posted 11-04-2009 6:41 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4932 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 26 of 31 (533970)
11-04-2009 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 2:43 AM


Hi Hooah
Wouldn't it be wonderful if the whole world could agree to free one generation from being brainwashed with the religion of their parents.
"You may say I'm a dreamer ..."

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 27 of 31 (533971)
11-04-2009 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-04-2009 4:59 AM


Wouldn't it be wonderful if the whole world could agree to free one generation from being brainwashed with the religion of their parents.
Indeed it would, indeed it would. Some day, we shall find solidarity in such things. Just not in MY lifetime, I'm afraid.

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 28 of 31 (533982)
11-04-2009 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 2:43 AM


Christian does not equal fundamentalist, nor young earth creationist
I can't think of any christians who would allow this.
I can. My Christian parents, both different types of Christians, had no problem exposing me to a variety of world views. My Catholic school, where I was taught secular biology by an atheist, also once invited a creationist nutter in to talk to us in 6th form.
Is every Christian you've ever met living in a little fundamentalist community out in the desert somewhere?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by hooah212002, posted 11-04-2009 9:49 AM caffeine has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 792 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 29 of 31 (534005)
11-04-2009 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by caffeine
11-04-2009 6:41 AM


Re: Christian does not equal fundamentalist, nor young earth creationist
Does the average, run-of-the-mill christian fight for ID or creationism to be taught in school?
Maybe I should have rephrased it, but I didn't think every point ever made had to be rehashed in every post.

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 Message 28 by caffeine, posted 11-04-2009 6:41 AM caffeine has replied

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 30 of 31 (534007)
11-04-2009 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 9:49 AM


Re: Christian does not equal fundamentalist, nor young earth creationist
It's not rehashing every point ever made - it's just a matter of your post not being utter nonsense. Using 'Christian' when you mean 'creationist' or something similar isn't convenient shorthand - it's just wrong. It's annoying and misleading when creationists randomly substitute 'atheist', 'scientist' and 'evolutionist' for one another, and it's equally as annoying and misleading when anybody else uses 'Chrisitan' and 'creationist' interchangably.

This message is a reply to:
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