Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   "The Edge of Evolution" by Michael Behe
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 119 of 149 (533546)
10-31-2009 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Kaichos Man
10-29-2009 6:48 AM


Re: Joe Thornton (and creationist targets).
Oh dear!
It's really not that hard. Each nucleotide can be one of four bases A,T,C or G. The chance of any one being correct for the enzyme in question is therefore 1 in 4. First nucleotide correct? 1 in 4. Second nucleotide correct as well? 1 in 42=16. Third as well? 1 in 43=64. And so on, all the way up to 1 in 41000. The -1 represents the one chance in this enormous figure that will give you the desired enzyme. If you want any enzyme you can divide the result by 20,000 (that's the estimated number of enzymes possible). It's still a laughingly tiny probability.
Utter miscomprehension on how probability stacks up in evolution. What you don't appreciate is that evolution works on the power of accumulation. I'm sure Michael Wong won't object if I refer you to his excellent probability page off his creationtheory.org website:
Probability - (Entire article as one page)
Please read this page Kaichos Man. There is quite a bit to absorb but there is a fun widget program to play that really brings home how series accumulation in probability helps evolution to home in on what appears to be impossible odds. It's easily the best and most easily understood treatise on the subject I have come across.
Edited by Drosophilla, : last sentence added.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-29-2009 6:48 AM Kaichos Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-02-2009 7:38 AM Drosophilla has replied

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


(1)
Message 128 of 149 (533732)
11-02-2009 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Kaichos Man
11-02-2009 7:38 AM


Re: Joe Thornton (and creationist targets).
Hello Kaichos:
Same problem. Natural selection can do nothing until there's phenotypic modification. Of course, that can be caused by a single nucleotide switching an existing gene on or off, but that's not creating new information, it's merely modifying existing information.
This is utter babble! Please try to remember that Natural selection will not actively select AGAINST a neutral modification (i.e. a change that does not effect a phenotypic change. Most changes to base pairing won't in fact cause a phenotypic change - and you are trying to use those figures in your statistics to say these 'don't count'. But because a change that doesn't cause a phenotypic change won't be selected against, it naturally means that change remains in the gene pool....and can later change again - this time maybe to one that does cause a phenotypic change.
In this scenario we have a two-step requirement - and what you are in effect saying is that unless it happened all at once it is too improbable. But if the first step causes no significant change from a point of view of Natural Selection, then it will remain in the pool - and be there when the next (possibly real effect change takes place).
This can be the case for numerous changes. If you need a twenty step link to a beneficial phenotypic change, then as long as the first 19 steps are either beneficial OR NEUTRAL, (which the majority of single step changes are), then the accumulating changes will not be taken out.
Only if intermediate steps are disadvantageous to Natural Selection within the pertinent environment, will the change be actively selected against and weeded out.
Very simple really: Changes that are neutral or positive will remain. If the change is positive then it will be actively selected for, if neutral the possessing organism has the normal chances of passing the neutral change on to offspring, allowing that change to continue to exist and maybe then in future mutating to the next change. If that is then a positive one, it will be actively selected for survival.
This is what is meant by the power of accumulation. did you try Michael Wong's probability widget where 10 dice are rolled all at once (repeating every two seconds). Michael reckons that you should get all ten to hit six at the same time approximately once a year.
Then he provided a second widget game. This one rolls ten dice but only one at a time, with the next one rolling only after the previous one hit a six (the equivalent to a later mutation on the back of an earlier neutral or positive change). You will find that this way you will hit all ten sixes in around 60 or so turn taking about 30 - 50 seconds...the power of accumulation.
You are assuming evolution throws all the dice together, when in fact it throws them one by one. The link, again, for those interested in trying his widgets is:
Probability - (Entire article as one page)
The widgets are under item 3 a third of the way down. As RAZD would say...."Enjoy"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-02-2009 7:38 AM Kaichos Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Wounded King, posted 11-03-2009 4:25 AM Drosophilla has replied
 Message 134 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-03-2009 6:52 AM Drosophilla has not replied

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 138 of 149 (533909)
11-03-2009 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Wounded King
11-03-2009 4:25 AM


Re: Joe Thornton (and creationist targets).
Hi WK:
I find your hypothetical 19 neutral potentiating steps scenario almost totally ridiculous.
Yes, I agree - got a bit carried away there. I wanted to confer the issue of neutral changes not being actively selected against by Natural Selection, which so many creationists seem to demand in their mathematics of impbrobabilities.
As Dawkins would say We need to creep up the slope of Mount Improbable rather than try and leap up the front-facing precipice.
But point taken...bold statements are not good science either!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Wounded King, posted 11-03-2009 4:25 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Wounded King, posted 11-04-2009 7:56 AM Drosophilla has replied

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 144 of 149 (534113)
11-05-2009 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Wounded King
11-04-2009 7:56 AM


Re: New genes and potentiating mutation
Hi WK:
Now I'm wondering if I was right. I have just started a new thread about genes generated de novo in the human lineage, New genes in the Human lineage, and I'm wondering if these would be a counter example.
I will follow this with interest, although I have to say you are clearly much more knowledgeble in the field of genetics than I. My background is straight biology (Hull University 1983) with an ancilliary course in genetics from back then.
I am guessing you are either a geneticist working in the field or, if not, someone very very gen'd up on the subject. I'll follow this with interest from the sidelines I think...
Regards...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Wounded King, posted 11-04-2009 7:56 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024