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Author Topic:   "The Edge of Evolution" by Michael Behe
Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 123 of 149 (533670)
11-02-2009 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Kaichos Man
11-02-2009 7:58 AM


Weasel redux
Dawkins Weasel (yes, I know, it's a toy) is a prime example of this. I mean, what exatly did the "correct letters" represent? Single nucleotides? Wouldn't be seen by natural selection. Genes? Can't be created by random processes. But Dawkins was smart enough to refuse to say what they represented.
They didn't represent anything. It was not a model for natural selection. It was a simple way of explaining how cumulative selection can work on inherited traits to 'climb mount improbable'. There are only a small number of pages in the book which discusses the weasel, and it does explicitly state that it is not a model of biological evolution in any interesting way.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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 Message 122 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-02-2009 7:58 AM Kaichos Man has replied

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 Message 130 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-03-2009 6:02 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 136 of 149 (533856)
11-03-2009 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Kaichos Man
11-03-2009 6:02 AM


Re: Weasel redux
But it is precisely the "inherited traits" that are so misleading and dishonest. SNPs won't be seen by selection (unless they alter existing information). Genes will be seen by selection, but they are too complex to be built by random processes.
In the weasel example there are no nucleotides. There are single letter changes. Which are seen by the selection method. And each letter change is inherited by the offspring. So it shows precisely what it is meant to show: That inherited traits, with variations, can climb mount improbable if a selection method is employed.
It is nothing to do with 'genes', 'nucleotides' or 'natural selection', other than in the most broadest possible sense.
Dawkins program is akin to me flapping my arms and saying "There, feel the air pressure under your hands? That's how you fly- it's easy."
If Dawkins claimed that his program explained biological evolution by means of natural selection you'd have a point. But he explicitly says it doesn't and he explicitly says it explains something else.

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 Message 130 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-03-2009 6:02 AM Kaichos Man has replied

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 Message 140 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-04-2009 7:31 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 142 of 149 (533997)
11-04-2009 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Kaichos Man
11-04-2009 7:31 AM


Re: Weasel redux
Inherited traits? Variations? Selection? If the program wasn't designed to explain biological evolution then it was designed to con people into believing that it does.
No - it was designed to show how the core idea behind biological evolution works: How a selection method can help ratchet up probabilities so that what appears to be a highly improbable end product isn't necessarily as improbable as it first appears.
As Dawkins says:
quote:
Although the monkey/Shakespeare model is useful for explaining the distinction between single-step selection and cumulative selection, it is misleading in important ways. One of these is that, in each generation of selective 'breeding', the mutant 'progeny' phrases were judged according to the criterion of resemblance to a distant ideal target, the phrase METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL. Life isn't like that. Evolution has no long-term goal. There is no long-distance target, no final perfection to serve as a criterion for selection, although human vanity cherishes the absurd notion that our species is the final goal of evolution. In real life, the criterion for selection is always short-term, either simple survival or, more generally, reproductive success.
Con men all over know that it is always a bad idea to explain that your con is a con and why it is a con to the mark. Either that or Dawkins wasn't intending to con anyone and creationists have spent the last twenty years working themselves up over what is essentially a quote mine.
It was a little example, hardly worth getting excited about that discussed the concept of cumulative selection. After he comments how it doesn't really model biological evolution in any reasonable way he goes onto discuss his biomorph idea which he argues, does resemble biological evolution more closely.
You should probably read the book.

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 Message 140 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-04-2009 7:31 AM Kaichos Man has replied

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 Message 145 by Kaichos Man, posted 11-07-2009 7:33 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 147 of 149 (534372)
11-07-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Kaichos Man
11-07-2009 7:33 AM


Re: Weasel redux
How a selection method can help ratchet up probabilities so that what appears to be a highly improbable end product isn't necessarily as improbable as it first appears.
Is a neat way of side-stepping Irreducible Complexity, in that it assigns selective advantage to each of a sequence of small modifications. No wonder Tricky Dicky used an abstract model for that. The reality of SNPs and genes would soon expose the impossibility of the process.
You should probably read the book.
Yes. Given a parallel lifetime
Yeah - I'd advise against constantly bringing up a small starting example used by an author to give his readers an idea on what cumulative selection means and arguing against it as if it was designed with a hidden agenda to propagandize for evolution. You'd do much better to argue against the biomorphs.
And you'd probably do well not to try and argue that the model doesn't perfectly replicate nature, since they are all by necessity simplifications that are meant to make it easier to understand the concepts that underly the complex system of biology to people that have not spend years studying it.
I think that just about concludes our discussion since this thread is not about Dawkins' Blind Watchmaker but about Behe's Edge of Evolution...which contains problems enough of its own to fill a thread I think.

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