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Author Topic:   How do I deal with a creationist family member?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 33 of 86 (534182)
11-05-2009 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 7:15 PM


quote:
I will assume she was raised Catholic.
You got it.
Something's amiss here - the Catholic Church officially supports the Theory of Evolution. The Catholic stance is that evolution does not directly conflict with Church dogma.
The Catholics have alsways been significantly more "loose" in interpreting the Bible than your aerage fundamentalist. They rely less on sola scripura and more on their long-reaching traditions, which they claim extend all the way back to the apostle Peter, if I recall correctly.
Of course, it also sounds like your girlfriend is relying on "how she was raised" rather than current Church teachings - and teh acceptance of evolution is relatively recent. Perhaps you should ask her why the Theory of Evolution is a problem for her children if it's not a problem for the Pope?
My problem is that, to me, she is forcing her views on the kids without respect for mine. The discussion started with her "request" for her friend, whom I have only met once, to be their godmother.
Your girlfriend seems to have a pretty poor understanding of what it meens to jointly raise children. She needs to understand that she is not the only parent - and the father has just as much a right to pass his values and beliefs on to his children as she does.
quote:
She just believes that if the child dies without being baptized he will go to Hell. Which she can't stand the thought of. The same goes for you.
That is fine, and I have no problem with that viewpoint of it. My problem is the way it comes across as though I am some evil son of a bitch.
The key is to approach the problem in a manner that doesn't threaten her beliefs. To be blunt, this might not be possible - but the fact that she presumeably cares about you, is living with you, and has children with you almost certainly means that she doesn't actually identify you as "evil."
She's absing these arguments on what she was taught as a child and on her emotions. Do you think that it's possible at all to get her to calmly discuss these things" If not, you're unlikely to do anything more than make her angry for questioning her long-held beliefs and threatening the souls of her children.
If you can get her to speak with you calmly, I would first reassure you that you have nointention of telling the kids that God doesn't exist. Tell her that you fully respect her right as their mother to pass on her values and beliefs, and only want to be able to do the exact same thing as their father. Reassure her that you have no intention of countering her religious instruction of the children, but that you won't lie when the kids ask why you don't go to church or don't pray or beliefe in God. Tell her that you also expect her to not villify you in the eyes of your own children by telling them that Daddy is going to Hell. Tell her that you can both instruct the children with a strong set of moral values and help them to grow up to be healthy, productive members of society even though the two of you don't share the same religious beliefs as long as you work together. Remind her that you love her and your kids just as much as she loves them and you, and that a family is a group effort.
But I can't stress enough that you'll need to repetitively reassure her that you have no intention of challenging her ability to instruct her kids in her faith. Tell her you aren;t going to say "your Mom is lying - there is not God." Try to work through what each of you will tell the kids, and work with each other to make sure that you aren't counermanding each other at every turn. Ask her what she does want to teach the kids - perhaps phrase it like:
"I know that you want to provide religious instruction to our children, and I'm fine with that. But to make sure that we don't work at cross purposes and I don't unintentionally contradict something you've told them, what exactly do you intend to teach them?"
You can use this as a nonthreatening springboard - she gets to feel more in control of the conversation, and you get a decent chance to address issues from your end before they actually come up. Remind her that the two of you talking calmly like adults beforehand is far better, not just for you but especially for the kids, than letting issues blow up later. Remind her how harmful it is for the kids to see their parents bickering and fighting, and how beneficial it will be for them if the two of you can reach an accord.
Again, it's either I compromise with her, or else? Why are the religious that way? Is god that much of a prick? I am fairly certain Jesus would understand......
I don't know how far you'll get with that line of thought. Sure, on debate boards like this we can look at the killing of teh firstborn of Egypt and say "lol God's a dick," but it's counterproductive in your situation. Try to avoid being unnecessarily confrontational, and remember that the idea is for the two of you to reach an agreement that makes you both relatively happy.
Again, that is a compromise I, repeat, I, am willing to make. She can take the kids to church all she wants. Just don't chastize me for teaching them science-y stuff.
Again, just reassure her that you aren't going to be teling the kids that God doesn't exist.
I would approach dogma-challenging issues like cosmology and evolution in teh same way the modern Catholic Church does - the Bible contains Truth, but does not explain the mysteries of how God Created. Science explores the how. Big Bang cosmology and evolution do not prove that God did not create the Universe - they just show how parts of it happened, and from their mother's perspective that means science is showing how God did the things reported in the Bible.
Good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by hooah212002, posted 11-04-2009 7:15 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 35 of 86 (534185)
11-05-2009 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by onifre
11-05-2009 3:06 PM


Dude, find another chick ... don't put up with that shit if you don't agree with it. She won't budge, people never do. Look at this site. Have you ever seen anyone, even when presented with evidence to the contrary, switch their opinion?
I did. I was a theist when I came here.
People can change. But he's not asking his girlfriend to convert to Atheism. He's asking her to have as much respect for his parental rights as he has for hers. That's a big difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by onifre, posted 11-05-2009 3:06 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by onifre, posted 11-05-2009 3:50 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 37 of 86 (534198)
11-05-2009 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by onifre
11-05-2009 3:50 PM


quote:
I did. I was a theist when I came here.
You did? I didn't know that. Fair enough.
Check my posting history. For the first part of my visit here, I was like Jar - a very liberal Christian.
I assume though that you at least listened to the arguments from the other side, right?
Yes, but we're talking about a position where logic and reason literally don't matter, and a set of unfalsifiable assertions to boot. I wasn't ever convinced that God doesn't exist - that would require proving a negative. Instead, I was simply convinced to believe in only that which I have evidence for, and was exposed to the degree of special pleading required to have confidence in one unfalsifiable unevidenced position while not granting the same degre of credulity to other identically evidenced unfalsifiable positions - the equivalent of believing in Dan's imaginary friend, but not Suzy's or John's for no objective reason whatsoever.
Do you feel his girl will listen at all to anything he says about this? From what I gathered from his post, she is not going to budge. Now, he can either spend a long time trying to get her to listen to his PoV, perhaps even arguing out loud and sadly having the kids hear this, or, give her an ultimatum - Let me share in teaching my kid, or peace...
I don't know her, and the information available to us is extremely limited. I know how other people of faith I do know would react, however. And what ICANT has said regarding her perspective on the argument is likely pretty close to the mark - her beliefs are being challenged here, and she likely fears for the souls of her children. The idea that her children, who she loves, could grow up to not believe in her God and eventually go to Hell forever is fucking scary. Insert protective maternal instincts here.
She's not going to budge so long as she perceives his influence as threatening. He has to make clear that he is not going to be contradicting her instruction at every turn. He has to repeatedly reassure her that he's not going to tell the kids that Mommy is full of crap, that Great-Grandma is not in Heaven, and that church is exactly as much of a waste of time as kids tend to think it is. He has to remind her that working this out in a civil manner and cooperating in raising the kids is by far the best thing, not only for the two of them, but most importantly for her children.
Her reaction is very likely based in part on fear for her kids. If he can redirect those maternal protection instincts to encourage cooperation for the sake of the kids, he might be able to find purchase.
quote:
But he's not asking his girlfriend to convert to Atheism. He's asking her to have as much respect for his parental rights as he has for hers. That's a big difference.
Well sure, but he's also trying to teach "them" his PoV, while him and his girl one share 1 child. So she may feel he's over-stepping his role. Thus he has a conflict. That's another issue I see.
Which means he has to reassure her that "his POV" is not as threatening as she believes, and remind her that parenting is a joint effort.
However, if you have to teach someone to show you respect, it has been my experience that you'll have to re-teach them again and again. That is something (at their age) that should already be known. How do you not know to compromise in a relationship?
That is surprisingly common, unfortunately. But I'd be willing to bet that she's more than willing to compromise in other aspects of their relationship...she only has such a vehement reaction when her faith is challenged. Dogmatic beliefs are by their very nature resistant to challenge, and attempts to question them frequently result in anger.
I suspect that she's also feeling embarrassed and threatened because he can quote the Bible more readily than she can. You saw what her reaction was to having teh Bible quoted, or being corrected on the King James version. The tone of the argument as conveyed is one of condescension. Not a problem in an online debate board...but a huge difficulty in the real world. A person who would readily concede otherwise will become angry and stubborn if they feel you are being condescending and embarrassing them.
That's why I recommended asking her what she intends to teach the kids from the perspective of ensuring that he doesn't overstep his bounds and contradict her. From that point, while she's thinking and talking rationally, he can try to make gentle suggestions to ensure that her religious instruction does not undermine his position as the father, and does not frighten young children with ideas like "Daddy's going to burn in Hell."
And I wasn't trying to say that he should convert her, not at all, I meant exchange her.
I got that. But the exchange policy for Girlfriend 5.0 is extremely involved once you've installed the Child 1.0 and subsequent Child addons. It typically requires money and lawyers and all manner of headaches and time. And finding Girlfriend 6.0 before completely uninstalling 5.0 is generally a bad idea, as the two don't get along and they can significantly damage the Child addons, which you cannot remove or reinstall (removing the Child addons with Girlfriend 5.0 still results in significant system resources being devoted to the Child processes).
The best solution if possible would be to arrive at a mutually amenable compromise, where both parents are able to pass on their beliefs and values without undermining each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by onifre, posted 11-05-2009 3:50 PM onifre has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 40 of 86 (534213)
11-05-2009 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Buzsaw
11-05-2009 9:07 PM


Blessed be the family commitments of til death do we part, come hell or high water, through the good and the bad, etc, where, so long as Biblical principles were applied, the non-complicated old fashioned functional family flourished fairly effectively.
The hell it did.
This may come as news to our older members like you, Buzz, but most women don't like the Biblical principles of meek and submissive wives. Those families didn't "work," they simply forced people to suffer with no recourse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Buzsaw, posted 11-05-2009 9:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 11-05-2009 11:10 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 49 of 86 (534312)
11-06-2009 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by hooah212002
11-06-2009 6:51 PM


Re: Leadership Role
Welcome to the 21st century! I know you are new here, so we will allow an adjustment period. Failure to eventually comply with modern viewpoints will surely end up with severe flames. Enjoy your stay!
Buz honestly thinks that the family structures of teh past were superior to equal partnerships, and that lifelong marriage is superior to the possibility of divorce regardless of the reasons.
You aren't going to get anywhere with him. Frankly, I'd just ignore him. He's just an old man waxing about the "good old days" when those uppity women would "happily" take care of all of teh housework, raise the kids, perform "wifely duties" on demand, and have dinner ready when he gets home.
Doesn't matter what the women actually want.
Turns out oppressive societies are pretty nice as long as you aren't the group being oppressed. Who knew?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by hooah212002, posted 11-06-2009 6:51 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by subbie, posted 11-06-2009 7:22 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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