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Author Topic:   How do I deal with a creationist family member?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 1 of 86 (533959)
11-04-2009 1:12 AM


Ok: my girlfriend, the mother of my son (we have 3 altogether...long story)...is quite possibly a creationist. I say quite possibly because she doesn't go to church or really practice much of any religion. But, she adamantly believes in god and has the same stance about it as your typical creationist.
We had a *ahem* discussion last night about baptizing our son. I told her I had no qualms about it. The discussion went further on about my beliefs, or lack there of. She called me an occultist because, she says, she was raised to believe anyone who doesn't believe in YHWH is in an occultist because, in her mind, EVERYONE worships something, even non-believers, so you must worship a false idol, therefor tagging you as an occultist. She then proceeded to tell me how my life is fucked up because I don't have god in it and how I am going to hell. I told her "Judge not lest ye be judged" and she said my quoting the bible was akin to satan quoting the bible. i asked her: "how come I am able to quote the bible and you can't?" since she has appearingly little knowlege of actual scripture, and every time we have these discussions, she just yells alot and ends the discussion, without really giing a good argument why I should conform to her "ways".
We also got into how she doesn't "believe" in evolution. She says "we didn't come from dirt". I told her to re-read Genesis. She told me I had NO business telling her about HER bible. I asked her what version she reads. "St. James edition" she says. "Oh, you mean King James?" I retort. Rolling her eyes, obviously emberrased, "yes".
Now, as I said, I have no qualms with her showing and sharing her views with the kids. Diversity is good. however, when I said that i would show and teach them "my" way, she flipped and told me she won't allow me to "poison" them.
it doesn't sound like it, but she IS an otherwise intelligent woman, just totally ignorant and unwavering when it comes to religion.
My question is this: how can I talk to her and show her, not that she is wrong, but, to be more accepting of different viewpoints.
(note: she is italian/german and fits the prototypical sterotype i.e.: she is quite the opposite of passive.)
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-04-2009 11:59 AM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 10 by Larni, posted 11-04-2009 12:47 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 11-04-2009 2:51 PM hooah212002 has replied
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 4 of 86 (533974)
11-04-2009 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-04-2009 5:20 AM


We try to not have them often due to the fact that, well, they don't do any good. What should be a civil discussion turns into a horrific mess because one of the involved parties sees compromise as a one way street. i.e.: you compromise with ME.
Edited by hooah212002, : stupid sig

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 11-04-2009 5:20 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 14 of 86 (534063)
11-04-2009 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Hyroglyphx
11-04-2009 11:59 AM


And judging by your avatar, you're a Nazi.
Did you read anything I wrote? i thought I did a pretty decent job of stating how I am willing to compromise. Did you not see where I typed this:
hooah212002 writes:
Now, as I said, I have no qualms with her showing and sharing her views with the kids. Diversity is good. however, when I said that i would show and teach them "my" way, she flipped and told me she won't allow me to "poison" them.
What I was trying to say was that I would also show them my views, not indoctrinate anyone. I believe they should have the option to choose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-04-2009 11:59 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 15 of 86 (534067)
11-04-2009 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
11-04-2009 2:51 PM


Wow, ICANT, spot on with almost everything.
I will assume she was raised Catholic.
You got it.
If she does not practice her religion, what is the problem?
My problem is that, to me, she is forcing her views on the kids without respect for mine. The discussion started with her "request" for her friend, whom I have only met once, to be their godmother.
She just believes that if the child dies without being baptized he will go to Hell. Which she can't stand the thought of. The same goes for you.
That is fine, and I have no problem with that viewpoint of it. My problem is the way it comes across as though I am some evil son of a bitch.
I will assume you and your girlfriend are in your late 20's or 30's. That means you both are well set in your ways and beliefs and there will probably be no compromise in beliefs. She has apparently already drawn the lines in the sand and when you cross those lines there will be trouble.
She is 29 and I am 27. Spot on again.
So basically your problem is, how much do you love this woman and your children?
You must decide your own course in life. Sometimes it is very hard.
Again, it's either I compromise with her, or else? Why are the religious that way? Is god that much of a prick? I am fairly certain Jesus would understand......
The lady is one of the most faithful members of the church but she never comes on Sunday night unless we are having something special. Sunday evening is spent with her husband. She does not fuss about that and he does not fuss about her coming on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. Sometimes when we have dinner at the church he will come and eat with us, even though it make him a little uncomfortable.
They have decided since they love each other so much that this is the best and only way to share that love. She has accepted the fact that he will never believe in God so she will share her love with him as long as possible here on earth.
Again, that is a compromise I, repeat, I, am willing to make. She can take the kids to church all she wants. Just don't chastize me for teaching them science-y stuff.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 11-04-2009 2:51 PM ICANT has replied

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 16 of 86 (534068)
11-04-2009 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
11-04-2009 2:42 PM


She could easily be concerned that he's influencing his kid towards Satan's manipulation.
and I feel she is hindering their learning by bashing evolution.
Deluding to society in general: why is it status-quo to accept ignorance from the religious for fear of offending them, but, it's ok to knock science? Why must we pander to the religious? (I am not speaking about my case in particular, but society. I know why I need to compromise with her.)

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 17 of 86 (534069)
11-04-2009 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Larni
11-04-2009 12:47 PM


How would she react if you took the wind out of her sails by being even more laid back by saying "yeah, I guess I am an occultist"?
Oh, that sort of response never goes well. I often tmes respond that way, only to get accused of not caring.
First come up with as comprehensive a list as you can detailing how you react in situations revolving around creationist issues.
Then design a hierarchy from that list from smallest to largest change in how you react to her. Over the course of several weeks or months go up the list (starting with the smallest change) changing how you react to her and record how that effects her reactions to your lack of belief.
Come up with a rating for your partner on a scale of one to ten for how tolerant she is of other peoples point of view. If she reacts in a relatively positive way (moving up the scale) you know your changes in how you react to her are on the right track.
I think I will try that, thanks.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 19 of 86 (534077)
11-04-2009 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
11-04-2009 7:57 PM


Hi Ho..
hooah will suffice. Thank you. (I'm not a ho. That is offensive.)
2. Below, your quote from the OP = You are forcing your views on the kids.
Call it my disdain for the religious, but I don't see my views as being forced on them as I do religion being forced. how many scientific methods are there? Now how many religions? Why teach them just the one religion? How can you "force" the scientific method, or logical/critical thinking? that is my way. I just want them to know all the options, and take away from it what they will. If they grow up god-fearing, bible thumping creationists, fine. They will know to stay the hell away from me with that.
Strategy (no easy solution, given the circumstances)= You present this message to your woman. Propose to agree that each of you allow the other to proselyte the respective POVs to the kids in private with the kids, but not in family debate. Then allow the chips to fall where the kids let them fall.
I've no problem with that angle. It's just a matter of her agreeing to it as well. Therein lies the problem.
My prayers will go up for your and yours, beginning tonight, that you will all ultimately come to the knowledge of the truth.
I search for it every day. Hopefully i will find it. Although, the search has enlightened me and taught me quite a bit more than had I just found the answer and stopped looking.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2009 7:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 21 of 86 (534098)
11-05-2009 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
11-04-2009 11:26 PM


2. If you would teach your way to little kids, in essence, you are forcing your ideology on them just as much as she is. It's called indoctrination.
I hardly see teaching logic, reason and the search for evidence as indoctrination.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 11-04-2009 11:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 11-05-2009 2:24 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 23 of 86 (534111)
11-05-2009 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
11-05-2009 2:24 AM


She hardly sees teaching her views as indoctrination. And therein lies the crux of the problem.
Ahhh. I see.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 38 of 86 (534209)
11-05-2009 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by onifre
11-05-2009 3:06 PM


The thing is, that would bring yet another child into this world with a broken family. Our oldest, her daughter, is from her previous relationship. The middle, my son, is from my previous marriage. The youngest, is ours together. We want to at least give one of them a childhood with both parents.
It is a struggle, but for the sake of the kids, it is worth it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by onifre, posted 11-05-2009 3:06 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by onifre, posted 11-07-2009 2:53 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 44 of 86 (534222)
11-05-2009 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
11-05-2009 11:10 PM


1. You are a pompous ass.
2. There is this thing called equality.....and teamwork. There doesn't always ave to be a "leader".
3. Don't try to assume a damn thing about my family and what you think it attests to. The bible means fuck all to me. I posed a question about ONE single aspect of my relationship with my girlfriend. The world would be a better place without biblical proselytization and christians chastizing people that believe something different than they do.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 11-05-2009 11:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2009 6:08 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 48 of 86 (534311)
11-06-2009 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
11-06-2009 6:08 PM


Re: Leadership Role
1. It is not pompousness on my part to know and understand that when you have two presiding authorities, i.e. presidents in any human organization it cannot function without bickering and contention. There needs to be a final decision by the leader when agreement on an issue cannot be resolved as is the case with any cultural unit.
2. It is a sign of ignorance on your part and not pompousness on my part to understand and advocate what the vast majority of human cultures since the recording of history have practiced relative to the male leadership role in the family unit.
Welcome to the 21st century! I know you are new here, so we will allow an adjustment period. Failure to eventually comply with modern viewpoints will surely end up with severe flames. Enjoy your stay!
I'm not assuming anything. By now in this thread, we all know what has been discussed with you relative to your family. It was you who chose to share the information, requesting suggestions as to how to resolve your problems.
Feel free to re-read the title of my thread and my OP. I have ONE question about ONE aspect/facet of the dealings with this other person. I did not post seeking dr. Love Guru's faith healing and spiritual guidance, so stop preaching, it's getting nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 51 of 86 (534319)
11-06-2009 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by subbie
11-06-2009 7:22 PM


Re: Buz's unintentional humor
Of course, the funny thing about Buz's neanderthal-like suggestion is that, if followed, it would result in hooah simply requiring his significant other to accept the validity of the ToE.
Talk about being on the horns of a dilemma!
I was thinking the same thing. My girlfriend is as strong minded as they come. If Buz were to say any of this shit to her, she would knock him the fuck out (she's one tough broad).

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 53 of 86 (534328)
11-06-2009 9:07 PM


Compromise too much too ask?
One thing I have noticed from the obvious christian posters, is that christians are unwavering in their ability to compromise. I see this as a serious flaw in their system. How can you be so ignorant to the feelings of other people, and at the same time say atheists or "evolutionists" have no morals? Do you care that little for your fellow man?
I don't believe a word the bible says. however, IF jesus was a real person, the things he teaches ARE good ideals to strive to live by. IMO, he was a peace loving hippy. If more of the hardcore religious types were just a little bit accepting of other views,as the rest of the world has been with christianity, we would all be better off. keep your beliefs private, and I will do the same.

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2009 9:58 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 55 of 86 (534331)
11-06-2009 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Buzsaw
11-06-2009 9:32 PM


Re: Leadership Role
LOL. Thanks for the welcome (I guess) but likely you were a teanager when I came in '03, so boot camp has long since past for me at EvC, heading towards 7000 messages in all. I deactivated my account for a few months and reactivated it a while back.
I meant welcome to the 21st century.........
Who's preaching? Obviously you find it convenient to ignore the fact that what I have advocated has worked for family units over the millennia, relative to situations such as yours. Now people like you with problems having no solutions choose to wave off what has worked, for the most part as old fashioned when, in fact, in spite of it's flaws, it had it's merits.
how many women agree with this? I don't mean weak, subserviant christian women either. I have no respect for anyone who can't stand up for themselves and what they believe in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 11-06-2009 9:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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