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Author Topic:   Life experience and the soul
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 16 of 50 (534278)
11-06-2009 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Straggler
11-06-2009 12:53 PM


Re: Dreaming Of YOU
Straggler writes:
Well if non-existence is the aim let's cut out the middle man of exietence. All those potential people that never were must be having a whale of a time?
This is basically asking, "Why are we here?", which might be the most-asked philosophical question of all time. If we haven't come up with a satisfactory answer in several millenniums, I have a feeling that I'm not going to be able to come up with a good one right now. But if I had to give my opinion, I'd say that all of us have been thrust into a situation - life - that may or may not turn out to be good, and that in the years we spend in this situation, we should try to make the best with what we've got. Perhaps this came about completely by accident (abiogenesis), perhaps some divine Creator put us here to test us, or perhaps some jokers in a higher dimension created humans just to laugh at us doing silly stuff.
Straggler writes:
In which case it isn't YOU that is in heaven. As far as I can see anyway.
This warrants the question of what the definition of "you" really is. For example, if in heaven my hair color changed from black to red, would I still be me? Or does hair color even exist in heaven? The most common answer is that only the soul ascends to heaven, which then leads us to ask what a soul is. And the answer to that . . . well, once again millenniums of thought have produced no good solution. Perhaps there is no such thing as a soul, or perhaps by its nature the concept of a soul simply eludes definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2009 12:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2009 1:33 PM Domino has replied
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 11-06-2009 2:46 PM Domino has replied

  
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 17 of 50 (534281)
11-06-2009 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Perdition
11-06-2009 1:12 PM


Re: Dreaming Of YOU
Perdition writes:
However, as a consequence, you are no longer able to enjoy the non-existence since you don't exist to enjoy it.
What I was trying to say is that maybe not being able to experience anything (even if that means not being able to enjoy the non-existence) is better than having to experience the world we live in now. In other words, it's possible that we may not be able to think to ourselves after death, "Boy, this is sure better than being alive," but it will be better anyway.
Hmm, that turned out more confusing than I meant it to be . . .

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Perdition, posted 11-06-2009 1:12 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 18 of 50 (534285)
11-06-2009 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Domino
11-06-2009 1:14 PM


Dreaming Of ME
This is basically asking, "Why are we here?"
Well I would like to think I am asking whether the question "Why are we here"? is even a meaningful question in this context. I would argue that we are quite capable of finding meaning without recourse to souls or heaven or any other aspect of eternal life.
Straggler writes:
In which case it isn't YOU that is in heaven. As far as I can see anyway.
This warrants the question of what the definition of "you" really is.
Well if it isn't my "mind" (which begs the question as to what exactly we mean by "mind") then I don't know what ME is. If I transplanted my "mind" to another body I think I would still be "me".
Having said that I am off to see my stylist about re-inventing myself.*
*Not really. I would rather die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 1:14 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 1:42 PM Straggler has replied

  
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 19 of 50 (534289)
11-06-2009 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Straggler
11-06-2009 1:33 PM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
Straggler writes:
I would argue that we are quite capable of finding meaning without recourse to souls or heaven or any other aspect of eternal life.
Asking why we are here naturally leads to asking whether there is a "there," i.e., any existence before or after this one. You don't have to call it "heaven," but the concept isn't easily avoidable.
Straggler writes:
Well if it isn't my "mind" (which begs the question as to what exactly we mean by "mind") then I don't know what ME is.
Millions of other creatures on this earth have minds too, yet only a tiny fraction of them (bottlenose dolphins, elephants, gorillas, etc.) possess self-awareness, or the ability to recognize who "me" is. So what sets that tiny fraction of self-aware beings apart from all the rest?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2009 1:33 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2009 1:53 PM Domino has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 20 of 50 (534293)
11-06-2009 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Domino
11-06-2009 1:42 PM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
You don't have to call it "heaven," but the concept isn't easily avoidable.
Which makes it no more or less meaningful.
Straggler writes:
Well if it isn't my "mind" (which begs the question as to what exactly we mean by "mind") then I don't know what ME is.
Millions of other creatures on this earth have minds too, yet only a tiny fraction of them (bottlenose dolphins, elephants, gorillas, etc.) possess self-awareness, or the ability to recognize who "me" is. So what sets that tiny fraction of self-aware beings apart from all the rest?
Absolutely nothing. All of which would suggest that even the concept of an everlasting ME is a by-product of intelligence and self-awareness rather than a reality genuinely worthy of consideration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 1:42 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 5:10 PM Straggler has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 21 of 50 (534300)
11-06-2009 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Domino
11-06-2009 1:14 PM


Why are we here?
Domino writes:
This is basically asking, "Why are we here?", which might be the most-asked philosophical question of all time.
Perhaps. But is it all that important?
In the internal, what-would-I-like-to-do-with-my-life sense?
I would say it's very important. But it's also answerable with an honest journey of self-discovery as we uncover what it is we do like and dislike. Find out what's important to you, and you'll find out why you're here.
In the external, absolute, purpose-from-some-other-being sense?
I would say it's not important at all. Useless, even.
Consider the tautology - The external, absoute reason we're here matches those thing I find important to pursue individually, or not.
If they do match, then the external, absolute reason for being here was useless and unnecessary because I already figured it out on my own anyway.
If they don't match, then why would I consider the external, absolute reason for being here as anything to bother with if it's something that's not a priority of importance to me?
Example: Let's say I find love, peace and harmony to be incredibly important, they are my priorities.
External, absolute reason for being here = to pursue love, peace and harmony.
Result - Awesome! I'm already doing it! No change to my life.
External, absolute reason for being here = to explore the universe as much as we can within the cosmic time-limit.
Result - Who cares? I don't care to explore the universe, I care about love, peace and harmony. Perhaps one day this will lead to spreading love, peace and harmony throughout the universe... then I will explore the universe as a by-product to my personal purpose, but other then that it would hold no interest for me. Therefore, there's still no change to my life.
Therefore, regardless of what the external, objective, absolute "reason for being here" is, or if it even exists at all, there is no change to my life. So, using any of my resources to contemplate or pursue the existence and concept of an external, absolute reason for being here is useless (as far as I can tell).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 1:14 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 5:27 PM Stile has replied

  
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 22 of 50 (534303)
11-06-2009 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
11-06-2009 1:53 PM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
Straggler writes:
All of which would suggest that even the concept of an everlasting ME is a by-product of intelligence and self-awareness rather than a reality genuinely worthy of consideration.
A by-product of intelligence? Maybe. Not a reality? Maybe. But worthy of consideration? Definitely. Acting as if there is a heaven, whether there really is one or not, can give hope and comfort where there was none before, make people act virtuously to try and obtain entrance to paradise, etc. And if it turns out there is no afterlife, then it won't matter because you won't be conscious of the fact that it's not there! So perhaps it's best to humor the people that do believe in the afterlife. They take their benefits from that approach to existence, and you take your benefits from yours.

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 11-06-2009 1:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 11-08-2009 11:55 AM Domino has replied
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 11-08-2009 12:07 PM Domino has replied

  
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 23 of 50 (534305)
11-06-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Stile
11-06-2009 2:46 PM


Re: Why are we here?
Stile writes:
So, using any of my resources to contemplate or pursue the existence and concept of an external, absolute reason for being here is useless (as far as I can tell).
One could extend the same argument to other fields, such as astronomy. For example, researching nebulae, galaxy clusters, or pulsars has virtually no effect on our lives here on Earth, does it? So why do we engage in such pursuits?
I believe that human beings are curious, and we simply can't help it. Think about how you would react if I put a large machine with a big red button on it in your bedroom, and told you not to touch it until April 17, 2039. It would be pretty hard not to press the button, or examine the machine, or look up the date to see if anything is special about it. Similarly, we humans tend to try and find out as much as we can about concepts and phenomena that don't directly affect our everyday lives, just out of curiosity. One of these concepts is heaven.

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 11-06-2009 2:46 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Stile, posted 11-09-2009 9:38 AM Domino has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 24 of 50 (534440)
11-08-2009 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Domino
11-06-2009 5:10 PM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
Straggler writes:
All of which would suggest that even the concept of an everlasting ME is a by-product of intelligence and self-awareness rather than a reality genuinely worthy of consideration.
A by-product of intelligence? Maybe. Not a reality? Maybe. But worthy of consideration? Definitely. Acting as if there is a heaven, whether there really is one or not, can give hope and comfort where there was none before, make people act virtuously to try and obtain entrance to paradise, etc. And if it turns out there is no afterlife, then it won't matter because you won't be conscious of the fact that it's not there! So perhaps it's best to humor the people that do believe in the afterlife. They take their benefits from that approach to existence, and you take your benefits from yours.
All of which presumes a very Christian outlook. And all of which is very Pascal's Wager. But which of the numerous afterlife alternatives do you suggest we seriously consider? Is baptism necessary to avoid rotting in eternal damnation? Should we each be buried with all our wordly possessions to avoid being poverty stricken in the afterlife? Should we place a coin in the mouth of the deceased to ensure passage to their rightful place? These are but a few examples of past or present widely believed deathly necessities.
How many of them would you suggest we give any practical credence to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 5:10 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Domino, posted 11-08-2009 1:31 PM Straggler has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 25 of 50 (534442)
11-08-2009 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Domino
11-06-2009 5:10 PM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
Welcome to EvC, Domino.
Acting as if there is a heaven, whether there really is one or not, can give hope and comfort where there was none before, make people act virtuously to try and obtain entrance to paradise, etc.
It also creates many problems for people who get it into their heads that they are going to go to hell and loose Yahweh's love.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Domino, posted 11-06-2009 5:10 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Domino, posted 11-08-2009 1:34 PM Larni has replied

  
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 26 of 50 (534454)
11-08-2009 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Straggler
11-08-2009 11:55 AM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
"We" don't necessarily need to give practical credence to any of these options. As I said before, the point is not to specifically determine which idea of the afterlife is correct and which measures need to be taken to prepare for that afterlife. The point is for each individual person to decide whether or not they want to believe in an afterlife, and if so, what sort of afterlife they want to believe in. When I say that the afterlife is worthy of consideration, I mean that it has the ability to influence some people's experience in this world for the better, and that those people should by all means accept the prospect of the afterlife if doing so benefits their life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 11-08-2009 11:55 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Straggler, posted 11-08-2009 1:52 PM Domino has replied
 Message 29 by Coragyps, posted 11-08-2009 2:02 PM Domino has replied

  
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 27 of 50 (534455)
11-08-2009 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Larni
11-08-2009 12:07 PM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
If I got it into my head that I was going to hell, I would do one of two things:
1. Try to change my ways so that I could go to heaven instead.
2. Decide that I don't believe in hell, thereby avoiding the worry that comes with considering it.
I would not, however, incessantly beat myself up about the possibility of going to hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 11-08-2009 12:07 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Larni, posted 11-08-2009 3:29 PM Domino has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 28 of 50 (534458)
11-08-2009 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Domino
11-08-2009 1:31 PM


Personal Hell Or Objective Hell?
"We" don't necessarily need to give practical credence to any of these options. As I said before, the point is not to specifically determine which idea of the afterlife is correct and which measures need to be taken to prepare for that afterlife. The point is for each individual person to decide whether or not they want to believe in an afterlife, and if so, what sort of afterlife they want to believe in. When I say that the afterlife is worthy of consideration, I mean that it has the ability to influence some people's experience in this world for the better, and that those people should by all means accept the prospect of the afterlife if doing so benefits their life.
If people want to special plead their own personal version of hell and then take steps to avoid that hell then good luck to them. I have no problem with that at all.
But how many such people treat this as a purely personal decision that is relevant to them and them only? Those who incite hell usually do so to proclaim moral authority over the actions of others.
I have no problem with purely subjective notions of god (or heaven or hell). But as soon as those notions start dictating what anyone else should or shouldn't do, or what anyone else should or should not believe, I will disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Domino, posted 11-08-2009 1:31 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Domino, posted 11-08-2009 2:35 PM Straggler has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 29 of 50 (534463)
11-08-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Domino
11-08-2009 1:31 PM


Re: Dreaming Of ME
When I say that the afterlife is worthy of consideration, I mean that it has the ability to influence some people's experience in this world for the better, and that those people should by all means accept the prospect of the afterlife if doing so benefits their life.
So if I want to believe that Eliza Dushku and Winona Ryder are coming over to my house soon with a keg of Pilsner Urqell and a hundred Viagras, and that makes me practice my very best personal hygiene and start exercising, that the belief has benefitted my life? That's easily as likely as an afterlife is, or maybe more so: Eliza and Winona actually, verifiably exist!
Edited by Coragyps, : tpyo

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Domino, posted 11-08-2009 1:31 PM Domino has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Domino, posted 11-08-2009 2:40 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Domino
Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 53
Joined: 11-06-2009


Message 30 of 50 (534466)
11-08-2009 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Straggler
11-08-2009 1:52 PM


Re: Personal Hell Or Objective Hell?
Ah, you didn't mention that earlier. Yes, I agree that it's never good for people to force their beliefs onto others. I can think of two reasons that this would be done with beliefs about the afterlife:
1. An altruistic desire to help others realize the true nature of the afterlife and ensure passage to heaven rather than hell.
2. An effort to gain entrance into heaven for oneself through the good deed of helping others to get into heaven as well.
In the first case, the person broadcasting his or her beliefs will probably recognize when others are getting upset or angry with him or her, and, not wanting to do any harm to them, will stop dictating those beliefs.
In the second case, though, the broadcaster of beliefs is driven by a personal desire to get into heaven, and so he or she will probably not be stopped by the ire or protests of whom he or she views as "unbelievers." This second case is what causes the conflicts over heaven and hell. However, it's impossible to resolve these conflicts: letting everyone believe what they want to believe will just result in argument, making everyone believe in the afterlife will anger the nonbelievers, and prohibiting anyone from believing in the afterlife will anger the believers. The only reason I prefer letting everyone believe what they want to, regardless of the arguments that may result, is because I believe that freedom of religion should be preserved as much as possible.

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Straggler, posted 11-08-2009 1:52 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 11-08-2009 2:44 PM Domino has replied
 Message 36 by bluescat48, posted 11-08-2009 7:00 PM Domino has replied

  
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