Divinity of Jesus

Hi Jaywill,

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"This Angel, as well as the One in 8:3, 0:1, and 18:1, is Christ. In the Old Testament, Christ was called "the Angel of Jehovah"; that Angel was God Himself (Gen. 22:11-12; Exo. 3:2-6; Judg. 6:11-24; Zech. 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7). Here in the New Testament He is again referred to as an Angel (a messenger). The expression [another Angel] indicates that Christ is not a common angel but a special Angel sent by God."

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this is confusing me...how can Jesus be the "Angel of Jehovah" and "God Himself" at the same time?? Unless he can be an angle of Jehovah and 'A' god.
Also how can he be "God Himself" but also a 'Special Angel SENT by God"
Do you realise this is really implying 2 separate individuals?.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

How God can do this I don't think anyone knows. And that question is far too difficult for me to answer.But the fact remains that this is what the Bible reveals and in the Christian experience we absolutely know it to be true.Perhaps for this reason the Gospel is a call to believe. To have faith in the matter of Jesus being God become a man is not only experiencial and enjoyable. It also leaves absolutely no room for human pride to boast in anything. This humbling and receiving faith is to receive what everything in our being reasons is impossible.Nevertheless, in Romans 8:9-11 and many many other passage on the experience of Christ prove that it is right to think of God, Christ, the Spirit of Christ as interchangeable titles for one Divine and mysterious Being - the Triune God. Biblically speaking I fully realize that we Christians are speaking of two distinct "persons". Though the Father and Son are distinct they cannot be seperated. So I would say that the Three of the Triune God are distinct but not seperate.Believing this and receiving Christ as God or even Son of God leaves absolutely nothing for the human intellect to boast in. Man prides himself in his knowledge and his ability to figure out this and that. We are very proud of this. But the nature of God is too mysterious.The Gospel message is to Whosoever believeth. It is not to "Whosoever can explaineth." I believe I may have written this before. The command of Christ is "Receive the Holy Spirit". It is not "Figure out the Holy Spirit".Do not waste your time trying to make me feel inadaquate because I cannot explain to you how the Word can be God and be with God and there be only ONE God. Do not waste your time trying to make me feel dumb. I can only help you by showing you what the Bible says. And I can tell you of how we experience that to receive the Son is to receive the Father.Jesus Christ said, and you should accept, that He and His Father as the Divine "WE" would come into the heart of those who lived Him. Let's look at this marvelous truth again: Jesus the Son of God said that He and His Father as "WE" will come to his lover and make an abode with them. I did not make up this passage. I did not insert it into the New Testament. This is the pure word of God. I have experienced it. And to know Jesus and accept Christ within is to know God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

well i have to commend you for your faith in something that is seemingly impossible to comprehend or even explain.that would kind of mean that Jesus could not really have died...if they cannot be separated, then death for Jesus must not have occured the way the writers say it did. What do you think is the explaination for the death of christ? Did he actually die? i apologise if that has been the result of my questions, it certainly wasnt my intention. Personally, i beleive that you can't answer those questions, not becuase you are 'dumb' but because your theology has changed the simple truths in the biblesuch Jesus is the 'son' of God and not God himselfand because your theology teaches that Jesus is a part of a trinity (something introduced in later centuries and not a teaching of the apostles or Jesus) then the whole bible is very difficult to understand. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Well, one of the Hebrew words used to discribe this incarnate God is pehleh, right here:"For a child is born to us, A son is given to us; And the government shall be upon His shoulder;

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And His name shall be called Wonderful [pehleh] Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace ..." (See Isaiah 9:6)This word pehleh is translated in my English version as "Wonderful". I can understand anything that is "Wonderful" is something "Full of Wonder".Now what is Wonderful about this Person? Well, for one thing though He is a little child, born in from the womb of a human mother, He is nonetheless the Mighty God. The Mighty God created the universe and is called Jehovah. Yet this child who spent mine months in a woman's womb and was born "unto us" is called Mighty God. That is full of wonder. That is PEHLEH - "Wonderful".Another Wonderful thing about Him. He is a "son". He is a "son ... given". Yet this "son" is the Eternal Father. But how can the Eternal Father be a son ? This too is Wonderful.Now this word is used a a few other places which help understand the Hebrew thought here:"Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful" (Judg. 13:18)"Is there anything too wonderful for Jehovah" (Gen. 18:14)"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it" (Psalm 139:6)This word pehleh is defined by such words as:

something unusual,
unheard of,
hard to understand,
beyond one's powers,
too difficult,
incomprehensible When you ask of Christ's death if Christ is God incarnate, I must respond by saying the this is "knowledge too high for me, I cannot attain to it".Nevertheless, notice that this child and this son is "unto us". He is for us though He is Wonderful. He is "given" to us. He is here for our experience and enjoyment and even more so to be our Governor. His being incomprehensible or embodying knowledge to which we cannot attain does not make Him impossible to enjoy and experience. He is the incarnate God who is unto us.We should not use His incomprehensibility as an excuse not to come under His Government. And we see from the New Testament that that government is to the Christian, primarily carried out by His indwelling and living within us as the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean that Jesus could not have died. We should know that Jesus did die and rose from the dead.I think it means that God exists in a realm in which death itself cannot destroy Him. He became a man so that He could undergo death. But He passes through it. He conquers it. And I do not pretend to fully understand this.However, Acts 20:20 says that God purchased the church with His (God's) blood."Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit as placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God which He obtained with His own blood." (Acts 20:28) God was incarnated as the man Jesus that He might suffer death. And because of Who He is, that significance of that death has eternal efficacy in what it accomplishes for man's redemption. We are called upon to believe the Gospel and trust Jesus Christ. You ask me if I believe whether Christ really died. You have read this, I assume: Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ "[/b]became dead[/b]". He died and rose from the dead. He has the authorith to lay down His life in death and to take it up again according to John 10:18.But I would draw your attention especially to what Jesus said to John Revelation: The title "the First and the Last" is equivalent to "the Alpha and the Omega". But Who says He is [b]"the Alpha and the Omega"{/b - the first letter of the greek alphabet and the last letter? It is [b]"the Almighty" (1:8) The title the First and the Last is also expressed in terms of the Alpha and the Omega. And it is God the Almighty Who both comes on the clouds to be seen by the tribes in the land of Israel and Who speaks that He is the Almighty. Jesus is the Almghty God incarnate.I would again draw your attention back to what this One who died and rose said: Yet it is Jehovah God Who identifies Himself as the First and the Last in the Old Testament: It is Jehovah the Almighty God Who is "the First ... also the Last." It is Jehovah God who stretched forth the heavens.Do you think that after "the Firstt" there is another "the First"? Do you think that before "the Last" there is another "the Last". Do you believe that there could be two Firsts and two Lasts? I do not. So the Son of Man Who says that He is the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17 must be Jehovah God incarnate. He is the child who is the Mighty God and the Son who is the Eternal Father.Now you also ask the very interesting question of why Jesus had to die. But this I would like to discuss in another post. But before this I would again emphaze that there is no First before the First and no other Last after the Last. And to make this point abundantly clear we read in Isaiah: If we truly wish to be witnesses for Jehovah then we must bear witness that NO GOD was formed after Him and no God was formed before Him and there is no Savior beside Him. So Jesus Christ Who died and rose and says He is the First and the Last must be Jehovah God incarnate as the Wonderful One. I understand. However, you are the one wanting to change the simple truths of the Bible.Is there another First besides Jehovah the First? If not then Jesus Christ, the First (Rev. 1:17) must be Jehovah God incarnate. Will you change this simple truth of the Bible? Will you teach that Jesus is the angel Michael in order to change this simple truth? Some of us will not buy your change.Is there another Last beside Jehovah God? Then Jesus "the Last" (Rev. 1:11) must be Jehovah God. We do not have to depend upon my theology. We are told in the prophecy of Isaiah that the Son given is called the Eternal Father and the child born is the Mighty God. It is really a matter of quotation rather than interpretation.It is Jesus Who speaks again in Revelation 22:12: The One who sits on the throne of God and speaks in Revelation 21:6 says: Whoever the Speaker is He is evidently the same Being as says He is the One who became dead and lives again and who is "the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:17).This is WONDERFUL! So by making Jesus Michael the angel you think you are helping people to understand the Bible? You are creating far more problems then you think you are solving by making two Gods where the Bible says that there is only Jehovah God the Savior.It is not the Bible that you are trying to make easier to understand. It is your teaching from Arius and Russell which you are trying to make easy to understand.But from here I wish to go on to your question about the death of Christ and the reasons for such. Perhaps we can plumb the depths of this profound truth some latter. I need a rest now.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

thanks for your response jaywill,i have to highlight Revelation 1 though, you mention that Jesus is the 'alpha and the omega' yet revelation says that Jehovah is the alpha and omega.And if you look at the verses in context, you can see that Jehovah and Jesus are distinct individuals

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Revelation 1:5and from Jesus Christ, the Faithful Witness, The firstborn from the dead, and The Ruler of the kings of the earth. To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his (Jesus) own blood

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6and he (Jesus) made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father (Jehovah) yes, to him (Jehovah) be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

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7Look! He (Jesus) is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

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8I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, says Jehovah God, the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.

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9I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Pat′mos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus

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If you recall I mentioned that that Father and the Son are distinct but not separated.Now concerning Revelation 1:7 and 8:This two verses are definitely a reference to what was spoken in Zechariah the prophet: The speaker in this passage is Jehovah. And interestingly Jehovah God and the Angel of Jehovah are interchangeable in that chapter: Him whom the Israelites have pierced in Jesus Christ who was pierced with nails on His cross. It was the Israelites who called out for Him to be crucified. Jehovah God says that they will look upon "Me" Whom they have pierced and weep for Him.Jehovah as Jesus Christ is coming on the clouds in Revelation 1:7. And He is the One Who is speaking in verse 8. The "coming" is the link. And the obvious reference to Jehovah who was pierced in Zechariah 12 establishes that Christ coming on the clouds is Jehovah God who was incarnated in a human body and was pierced. They will recognize Him as their Messiah and weep over Him in that day when He comes on the clouds to the land of Israel.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

i'll have to agree to disagree on the jehovah/jesus combinationWho is this proverb written about? Who did Jehovah produce as the beginning of his creative works? And who is the 'master worker' of God Jehovah?

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Proverbs 8:22Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

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This is an important scripture in understanding the identity of Jeuss and Jehovah. As you can see, 2 individuals are spoken of here. Jehovah produced another being like himself and this being came to be beside God as a 'master worker' and the Jehovah had a special fondness for this one. It is two individuals and its inline with how Jesus was explained by the apostles.

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John1:1 1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

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this verse is obviously based on the greek reading whereby the definite article is in place as it is in the original language. It clearly shows that 'the word' was with 'God' and he was a 'god' and the creation came into existence thru him.do you see that by separating Jesus and Jehovah, there is no downplaying of Jesus position or role in Gods purposes. Jesus was the masterworker to whom Jehovah was 'especiallally fond of from the earliest times, before the founding of the earth.He really is a mighty god and his position is above all other angels. Separating Jehovah and Jesus into their distinct identities does not detract from this in the slightest. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Isn't it a matter of accepting all the the Scripture teaches? If you have a myopic view and only want to choose passages to believe, then you will not have a full view of the Bible's revelation.I think the Proverb passage we have discussed before. Most English translations I have checked said the God possessed this Wisdom. Of course God possessed wisdom from eternity as long as He has been God - forever.So that God produced wisdom at the beginning of His creation of the universe is not my understanding. Rather God possessed His wisdom at the beginning of His creation of the universe is my understanding.This is quite logical. For if God had no Wisdom to begin with how would He have had the wisdom to create wisdom ?Going on to speak of the redemptive death of Christ I believe that two parties are involved - God and man. Your view that an angel of God's creation died would make three parties.Do you see three parties involved in the act of eternal redemption ? How is it righteous for a third party to come and pay the dept for the offender to the offended ? That is unrighteous to the third party.Rather I see that the first party, God, the offended, has accepted the loss into Himself. He has done this by being God-man and incurring the penalty of man's sins. He has carried up our sins in His body onto the tree as Peter taught.That is all the time I have. I will come back to this. I will not be going over John 1:1 again.

Indeed - when redemption from the rightful claims of the law is the issue at hand. But the problems for Peg's tri-partite plan multiply when we consider things from the perspective of loves' desire to forgive. The nature of forgiveness is such as to require the forgiver to be the one to pay whatever the cost of the offence happens to be - themselves.In order for God to forgive, God himself has to suffer the cost attaching to our sin. Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Thank you iano.And to echo your post, there are only two persons that have the right to deal with the problem of sin. One is the one who has sinned against another. The other is the one who has been sinned against.This forgiveness of God is because of His taking up the consequence of man's sin. God in Christ has suffered the consequence.
Only the one who has been sinned against can take up the sin of the sinning one.A third party has no right to come in and forgive the offense. The party sinned against has the right to forgive. The redemptive work of Christ is God Himself coming to bear man's sin against Him. It is God bearing that which man has sinned against Him.In other words if Jesus Christ were not God, He would not be qualified to bear our sins righteously.Please comment further on this observation.Psalm 90:2 in my Recovery Version reads "Indeed from eternity to eternity, You are God." The Psalmist is refering to Jehovah (v.13)Micah 5:2 speaking of the Messiah of Bethlehem Ephrathah says - "From you will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel; And His goings forth are from ancient times, from the days of eternity." I see every indication here that the born Christ is God from eternity in Psalm 90.Peg, clings to some passages but seems to completely ignore many that have been presented.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

When Jehovah Witnesses can write their own Bible as they have done with their Watchtower Bible, then they can say whatever they want it to say; i.e, "the Word was a god."But John 1:1 reads as follows in the original Greek: When JW's are allowed to quote from their own Watchtower Bible, it's no wonder that they cannot see nor have they entered into the kingdom of God as Jesus declared in John 3:3-5.

well your right on that notei havnt entered into the kingdom of God because thats in heaven, and im on earth...i hope to stay hereits nice here lol

Peg, the New Testament does not restrict the kingdom to only being in Heaven. For example, in the church age, on the earth, Paul informs us that the kingdom of God is with the normal prevailing new testament church life: "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Rom. 14:16)Please read carefully the context of the whole chapter 14 of Romans. Paul is speaking of a vital and vibrant church practice in the normalcy of the Holy Spirit. This is to take place on the earth during the church age. The "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" is the victorious Christian life today on the earth.In other words "your church should not be defeated being preoocupied with eating and drinking but neglecting the victorious spiritual life. But it should be in the kingdom of God; in "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."Neither did he write that "the kingdom of God [WILL BE]" as to the future millennium. But it IS presently "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"In the same sense Paul informs the Colossian Christians that they have already been transfered by the Father to the kingdom of Son of God's love - "Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you ... who delivered us out of the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (See Col. 1:12-14)Past tense - "has delivered us, has ... transfered us into the kingdom." Their participation in the kingdom of God is not on hold until they go to Heaven. They have been qualified, forgiven, and transfered into God's kingdom.The Apostle John, when writing the book of Revelation, said that he was at that time a "partaker in the triubulation and kingdom and endurance" (Rev. 1:9). John was on the earth.For Paul to preach the gospel of the grace of God on the earth was also for Him to announce the kingdom of God: " ... I have received from the Lord Jesus to solemnly testify of the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold I know that you all, among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom, will see my face no more." (Acts 20:24,25) His testifying to the gospel of grace was also his proclaiming of God's kingdom.Consider also that Jesus says that He will removed from His kingdom all stumbling blocks and those who cause offense. "The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who proactice lawlessness. And will cast them into the furnace of fire ... Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of thier Father." (See Matthew 13:41-43)Surely this does not mean that Christ will rapture to Heaven the believers WITH the unbelieving and there in Heaven collect out of His Heaven those to be condemned to perdition. Rather this collecting out of His kingdom should be an activity to take place on earth where the overcoming disciples of Christ are amidst the workers of lawlessness (See verse 38 where [b]"the field"{/b where the tares and wheat grow together is "the world").This is a big subject. This post is to prove that the kingdom of God is not restrictedd to be in Heaven during the church age or even immediately after Christ's second coming.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi Jaywill,long time no see...hope you are all well i'm aware of thatThe kingdom rules from heaven, over the earththerefore you're quite right to say that it is not restricted to heaven. However, those who rule in the kingdom with Jesus are most definitatly restricted to heaven for Paul said at 1Cor. 15:50 "I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."this means that a flesh and blood person cannot inherit the kingdom of God...why do you suppose that is? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Thankyou. My God is the man Jesus. When man was created a living soul in Genesis 2:7 it was God's purpose that the strongest part and ruling part of his being would be the innermost human spirit. The order of man's being should be the body is under the control of the soul and the soul is under the control of the human spirit. The human spirit was created the highest part of man.In the disobedience of Adam the human spirit became comatose and deadened. God warned man that in the day he would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. The death of the human spirit into its comatose state was the initiation of this death that God warned man about. Of course eventually man's body died also.When the human spirit died the human soul ascended to be the highest part of man's being. This was a corrupting of man. And this corrupting effected also the body. The body of the fallen man with the deadened spirit is a soulish body which is corrupted.Now Paul says that corruption cannot inherit incorruption: "Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does curruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:50)The Recovery Version Footnote on this verse is helpful to me: Paul goes on in verse 51 to speak of the changing of those who "sleep", ie. have died in Christ. Their bodies will be resurrected and transfigured - "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this ccorruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."It is the resurrected and transfigured body of the Christian which inherits the kingdom of God in the millennium.In the church age, the human spirit has been regenerated. So though body has not yet been transfigured the human spirit is regenerated and the soul is under the process of transformation. The proper new testament church life, therefore is the kingdom of God on this side of the second coming of Christ: "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteusness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Rom. 14:17)This passage refers to the prevailing and normal Christian church in the city of Rome or where ever the church is normal as it should be.We could also think of the kingdom of God like the human kingdom. One has to have the human life to be in the human kingdom. So one must have the life of God to be in the kingdom of God. Therefore unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3) And unless one is born of water and the Spirit (probably meaning termination of the old life as symbolized in baptism, and the spirit) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (vs. 5)In the church age the one participating in the kingdom of God has to be born in his spirit with the King's life. In the millennium she or he must be "swallowed up" by life (2 Cor. 5:4; 1 Cor. 15:54; See also Isaiah 25:8) This does not address all the difficulties concerning the inheriting of the kingdom of God though. And my understanding is also limited.