Did Jesus Really Suffer?

to understand Jesus sacrifice, you have to understand why it was needed.It all comes back to two things
1. Adam & Eve
2. Satan the devil.Satan challened Gods rulership and accused humans of being incapable of maintaining loyalty to God. Satans first attempt to prove his claim was by turning Adam & Eve against God. He was successful, he turned them away from God and they had to suffer the consequences of sin and death...the result is that all their children were born into the same condition through no fault of their own and because of this God fortold the coming of a 'Seed' or a person who would put the issue to rest and prove satans accusation as false and give Adam and Eves children the prospect of getting out of this condition
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Genesis 3:15 "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."This is a first prophecy regarding the 'Seed' who was to come and give his life as a sacrifice. This 'seed' is the Messiah, Jesus Christ and his role was to prove Satans claim false and give the children of A&E an opportunity to live the life that they lost.When Jesus was killed, he maintained perfect integrity to God and therefore was able to prove Satans claim false. It also became the legal basis for which God would forgive sin and redeem mankind.In the near future, Jesus will assume his role as the King of Gods Kingdom and lead mankind back to perfection. The earth will be goverened by Jesus as Gods spokesman and we will have opportunity to learn perfection. Daniel 2:44 tells us that the 'God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms"
This period of time will be the 1000 year millenial reign, so there will be plenty of time to return to the condition A&E lost.So in conclusion, Yes Jesus did suffer and yes it was beneficial to mankind. Without his faithful course, we would have no hope of getting out of the terrible condidtion we are in. Sickness, death, war, enviromental pollution/destruction and cruel rulership by corrupt and domineering people.Under chists rulership we will have freedom from all of this... its all thanks to his sacrifice.

really?explain why you think so

actually we are paying for our own sins. God does not hold A&E sin against us which is why he sent his son in the first place.Sin means to go contrary to Gods standards of perfection. We all go contrary to Gods standards and therefore we all sin. Even people who try to live by Gods laws fail, including myself, because we are imperfect and prone to fail with regard to Gods standards. Genesis 3:15 fortells that Satan would have his head crused by the seed. What human could possibly kill a sprit creature? None of us can so the seed could only have been refering to someone with the power to destroy a spirit creature...they would have to be a spirit themselves.the seed is mentioned throughout the OT by the prophets who shed much light on identifying who the seed would be. Isaac’s own son, Jacob, prophesied that the seed would be a ruler called Shiloh, or The One to Whom It Belongs, out of Judah. (Gen. 49:10) Isaiah foretold his being born of a virgin, from David’s house, his humiliation and rejection and his sacrificial death. (Isa. 7:14; 9:6, 7; 28:16; 50:6; 53:5-12) Daniel described him as Messiah the Leader, and foretold the exact dates of his appearing and of his being cut off in death. (Dan. 9:24-27)Other prophets also added details about his life, ministry, death and resurrection. (see Micah 5:2; Hosea 11:1; Zecheriah 9:9; 11:12; Psalm 22:16-18; 34:20; 16:10; 110:1)
There are literally hundreds of prophecies about the identity of the seed And when Jesus arrived the disciples repeatedly testified under inspiration that he was the foretold 'seed'That means that Genesis 3:15 is speaking about Jesus...the one who came to defeat Satan. Satan 'bruised him (jesus) in the heal' when he had him killed, and Jesus will 'crush the serpant in the head' when he delivers the final deathblow. 2 Peter 1:21 Prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.When Moses wrote the account of Job, it was under guidance of Gods holy spirit. The writers did not sit around making up stories. They were merely secretaries for God. He guided their thoughts and the writers put it down in writing. This makes God the author of the bible, not men. So yes, i do take the bible on its own authority. as i said in my first post, it comes back to Adam and Eve and Satan. They went off course and rebelled against God.
This rebellion is why we are in state we are in. God is not so malicious as to destroy his opposers but he allowed Satan time to state his case. However, all along the trail of human history, he has been there providing them with his instructions. First it was thru the patriachs, then thru the Nation of Isreal (people from any nation could join Isreal) then it was through his own Son Jesus Christ.When Jesus came on the scene he showed them what God was like and how God wanted them to act. Christianity is leading people back to God through his son Jesus. Never.

We are paying for their mistakes, yes. But not in that God is punishing us. We are living in the consquences of the life they chose.For example, if a gambler chooses to spend all the families money and sells the family assets to pay his debts, the family are indirectly suffering for the gamblers mistakes.In the same way, we are living under the conditions that A&E created by going contrary to Gods law. No, we are designed to have freedom of choice and for this reason we CAN sin if we choose to. However it also means we can choose NOT to sin. Gods will is that all mankind return to him and his standards
Malachi 3:7 Return to me, and I will return to you.With freedom comes responsiblity. If we use our freedom badly, then the consequences flow onto those around us. Every decision we make has the potential to harm us and others.While God gave us our natural desires, he also gave instructions on how to use our freedom. When we go contrary to that instruction we fall into sin and its consequences. No, we were designed to choose. Jesus proved that mankind is capable of remainging sin free. He succeeded where Adam failed which means we can choose. Granted, Jesus was perfect and so his factulties were perfect...ours are not yet there are many examples of imperfect people chosing to obey God and therefore we are not designed to fail. the hebrew word Satan means opposer/resister...in Job the hebrew word describes one of the spirit sons of God who chose a rebellious course. he is called 'satan' however its a descriptive name only. Later Jesus spoke a lot about this one and he called him the 'ruler of the world' and the christians called him 'the original serpant'Its quite well established that Satan is a rebellious angel. Revelation says that he will be destroyed and mankind set free from his influence. Its not ambiguous when you take into consideration the revealing of the 'seed' in the OT. The jews were waiting for the seed and the prophets explained him in great detail. The christians proclaimed Jesus as the seed so right throughout the bible, you can follow the revealing of who the seed is and whe he would do. Its certainly not ambiguous. Im not drawing conclusions, Jesus and the christians testified to the identity of the seed. critics claim that almost all the bible books were written by unknown authors. However there are a few lines of reasoning to conclude that Moses wrote the book.
The oldest jewish and christian traditions say that Moses was the writer and that the book was an inspired writing. The book was written in Hebrew poetry which means it was an original composition and not a copy from another language so only an Ancient isrealite could have written it. The style of writing is very similar to the Pentateuch which is the 'books of Moses' according to many other jewish writers including Jesus and the Christians.And because of the content being dialogue between God and Satan, it must have been written by an isrealite who was given divine direction. At that time, only Moses was being provided direct instructions from God so it reasonable to accept that moses was the writer. Also, Moses spent 40 years in Midian which is fairly close in proximity to Uz the land where Job lived. the gnostic scriptures contradict the bible so its clear that the source of information is not from the same source as the bible. You would expect that if God were the author of the gnostic writings, then they would have been accepted by the priests of Isreal, however they were not accepted. They may even have been writen after the cannonization of the scriptures which would exclude them.The bible does make mention of other writings that were not inspired such as the 'book of the kings' which would have been an account of the kings of isreal. While it wasnt inspired, it was still an important piece of writing for the nation. However, not all pieces of writing by the isrealites are inspired by default as if being an isrealite means you must be inspired. Remember the nation was not always followers of Gods law and often false teachers were leading them away to worship pagan gods and even succeeded in introducing false worship into the nation at times.[qsHyroglypx]My question is how you know this to be true. From where I'm sitting it appears circular. [/qs]the writers themselves testify to this Peter said at 2peter 1:20 "no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."Prophecy is an evidence of inspiration because its impossible for man to accurately foretell future events. Yes perhaps they can make vague gueses but the bibles prophecies are incredibly detailed. if God wanted his physical creations in the spirit world, he would have mades us spirits the way he made myriads of other spirits called Angels.There is no reason to assume that God wants us in heaven with him. He created us for the purpose of mananging the earth, not living in heaven. And the earth is just as important to him as the heavens are.here are a few scriptures to give you an idea of how he views the earth and those on it.Isaiah 45:18 This is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited..."Genesis 1:28 "Further, God blessed them and God said to them: Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it"Psalm 78:69 "And he began to build his sanctuary just like the heights, Like the earth that he has founded to time indefinite."Psalm 104:5 "He has founded the earth upon its established places;
It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever"Psalm 37:11 "But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."Psalm 115:16 "As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong,
But the earth he has given to the sons of men"these scriptures, and many like them, show that mankind was always meant to live on earth...the whole going to heaven thing is a non biblical teaching adopted by the church. Edited by Peg, : added malachi scripture

they certainly did know the consequencesGenesis 3:2-3 "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for eating of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’"Perhaps you misunderstand what 'sin' is.
Sin is disobedience to Gods standards and laws and requirements.
Its not something that he could give them or plant in them as a desire.
Sin is what happened when A&E used their freewill to disobey God.
He wanted them to obey him which is why he told them NOT to eat from the tree. Well not every religion beleives that Jesus is God. Mine does not teach that Jesus was God. We teach, as the bible says, Jesus is the 'SON' of God.
Jesus is a created being, just like the rest of the angels. Jesus was the very first angel created which is why the bible calls him 'The only Begotten Son'The point of Jesus coming was to stand in place of Adam, the first father.
1Corinthians 15:22 "For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive"the purpose of Jesus was to give mankind a new perfect father. Sin has been passed onto us thru the original father Adam, however thru Jesus, we can have a new perfect father, one who does not pass sin onto us. Those who look to Jesus and follow him, can be viewed by God as 'sinless' and thus have the opportunity to live forever as God intended. Ezekeil prophetically described 'Satan' in his pronouncement of judgement upon the king of Tyre. In this description, Satan was shown to be a heavenly cherub who was created perfect. However he became unrighteous.
Ez 28:13-15 13In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.Jesus shed light on the nature of Satans unrighteousness. He told his diciples that Satan did not stand fast in the truth, this shows that Satan was once a faithful servant of God but deviated from that right course. The bible shows that Satan nurtured feelings of self-importance to the point that he coveted worship that belonged only to God.It also tells us that Jesus came to put an end to Satans rebellion
1John 5:8...the Devil has been sinning from [the] beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil. In the account of Job, Satan shows his motives when he challenged God saying that he could turn God’s servant Job, and by implication any servant of God, away from Him.
When Satan tempted Jesus, he asked Jesus to fall down and do an act of worship to Satan and Jesus reply was that "Its is your God Jehovah you must worship"
This shows that Satan was after the worship that living creatures rightly give to God. the Jews are as wrong today as they were back then. Did you know that Daniels prophecy gave the year of the Messiahs arrival? The jews back then knew and they were in anticipation of his arrival. However when Jesus presented himself, they wanted a warrior, not a carpenter. their idea was that the Messiah would free them from the Roman yolk. Even Jesus diciples thought that he was going to restore the kingdom to Judah and Jesus had to correct them. the Messiahs kingdom was to be a heavenly kingdom, not antother earthly government. Their expectation was wrong, but Jesus fulfilled everything that the OT required.
Some of those requirements are pending for a future time, but as the Messianic kingdom was to be a world wide rulership, it couldnt possibly be another human run governemnt located in Jerusalem. thats exactly what i'm saying. He made us as physical creations because he wanted us to look after his physical creation, the earth.
The early christians formed the original body of Christ on earth. But after the death of the Apostles, other men began to introduce their teachings into the church, they took over and transformed the church into something false. Some of their teachings were completely contrary to the teachings of Christ. There was fortold to be a long time of darkness on the earth where the 'light' or truth of the scriptures would be hidden, but then in the last days, God would pour out his spirit and reveal the truth to those who loved him.when the last days began, there were many different christian churchs and groups all studying and teaching the bible. Some of them continued to teach the false doctrines that had been introduced centuries earlier, but some others spoke out against such teachings. God chose those who were true to the scriptures to pour out his spirit on and they became the new Isreal of God.

Jesus was certainly human, but he wasnt God. He was the Son of God as the scriptures repeatedly testify. The idea that Jesus was God was introduced after the Apostolic period....the bible doesnt support it. Pauls spoke about jesus death and about how God did not allow Jesus human body to 'see corruption' or to rot in the ground.
Acts2:31he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha′des (Hell) nor did his flesh see corruptionWe know that when the women went to the grave to emablm his body, the body had gone and an Angel told them that Jesus had risen. But the physical body was taken by God. When Moses died, God buried him in a place that no isrealite knew of and this was also the case with Enoch from the account in Genesis.But in the case of Jesus, the physical body is said to 'not see corruption' which measn it was not left in the ground to rot. The likely scenario is that God himself disposed of Jesus body.

Hi halifaxGuyit might be easier for me to answer each of your questions using only the bible. Acts 1:9And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision.

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10And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, 11and they said: Men of Gal′i‧lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky?

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This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.Notice that in this verse, the diciples did not view jesus ascending into heaven. Vs 9 says 'a cloud caught him up from their vision'
Also vs 10 says they were looking into the 'sky'...not looking at Jesus. Then the Angels appeared and asked them why they were looking into the sky...so it wasnt Jesus they were looking at, it was the sky. the early christians thought of the 'soul' as the living person not as somthing invisible or spiritual.
Look at the following verses and decide how they viewed Jesus resurrection? What form or type of body do they identify as being raised for heavenly life? 1Pe 3:18"Christ died once for all time ...he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit"

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1Co 15:50 "However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom"

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1Cor 15:35"Nevertheless, someone will say: How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming? ...40And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. ...44It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45It is even so written: The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."The isrealites were familiar with the Idea that God can dispose of bodies himself so that they do not have to be buried. Moses body was disposed of by God and so was Enoch's body.
The Apostles applied the prophecy in Psalm about God not leaving the body/soul of the loyal one in the grave/pit, to Jesus. Its likely that they believed that God had disposed of Jesus body in the same way he did Moses and Enoch. Psalm 16:10For you will not leave my soul in Sheol.
You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit."

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Acts 13:34"And that fact that he (Jehovah) resurrected him (Jesus) from the dead destined no more to return to corruption,...35Hence he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not allow your loyal one to see corruption.’ 36For David, ...fell asleep [in death] and was laid with his forefathers and did see corruption. 37On the other hand, he(Jesus) whom God raised up did not see corruption"What is also notable about jesus appearance after his resurrection is that the body did not look familiar to his close associates.
When Mary Magdalene saw Jesus, she though he was the gardener. It was actually the way he spoke that made her realize it was actually Jesus. And the body was able to appear and dissapear at will. This is exactly how the angles appeared to people, they could materialize and take on different bodies. John 20:14-15"After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15Jesus said to her: Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for? She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.

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Luke 24:30"And as he was reclining with them at the meal he took the loaf, blessed it, broke it and began to hand it to them. 31At that their eyes were fully opened and they recognized him; and he disappeared from them"

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John 21:4 "However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course, discern that it was Jesus." The conclusion is that the body of Jesus was disposed of by God in order for the body not to experience corruption in the grave...corruption means disintegration in this sense. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : fixed quote boxs

Of course they had comprehension of death, the animals around them died, so they knew what death was. God placing the law on the tree was how they knew it was bad not to listen...the law told them what would happen if they disobeyed it. Can you explain how he gave them a desire to sin? Sin and evil are not one in the same. People sin, but they are not necesarily evil.How do you define evil? Is it?
Many other translations simply say "before Abraham was,I have been" or "I was"John said at John 1:1
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with GodThis is in harmony with the words of Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness.God is clearly speaking to someone here. He is speaking to the one who told the religious leaders... 57Therefore the Jews said to him: You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham? 58Jesus said to them: Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.there is no trinity. That teaching was developed centuries after the bible had been penned by christians who tried to explain christianity in terms of greek philosophy.

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The New Encyclopdia Britannica says: Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). ... The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. ... By the end of the 4th century ... the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.(1976), Micropdia, Vol. X, p. 126.

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John 1:1 has deliberately been translated incorrectly. if Jesus was God Almighty, why describe him in terms of 'son' and 'child' 'Prince'
that is not how Jehovah is ever described in the OT. again this verse does not support the trinity. Its says Jesus is in the 'form' of God...not God himself. It also shows that Jesus is in subjection to God and that he is NOT Equal to him. If Jesus was God, then surely he must be equal to God...this scripture is not saying that though. if he corrected things in Eden, You and I would not be alive today. We are from the genes of Adam and Eve. It was their blood line that we have come through...if they produced no children, none of us would be alive today. and yet millions of other angles and 1 other perfect human have remained sinfree...doesnt make sense if we are prone to sin.
Jesus was tested to the extreme and yet remained sin free. Millions of other Angels have remained sin free too so its not impossible. its the church's who promote heaven, not the bible. The bible speaks endlessly about living on earth in paradisaic conditions. If God wanted us in heaven, he would have made us there. you do that by looking at what you are being told with a critical eye and comparing those teachings with Gods word the bible.

the animals were not created in the 'image' of God so there is no reason to conclude that they could live forever. Besides, if death came from the consequences of disobedience, then the animals could not have disobeyed becasue they are not conscious of Gods existence or his laws. it is a problem i agree...however not one that cannot be identified. More accurate knowlege of the Hebrew language has helped many translators to convey accurately the original language. A lot of misunderstanding is also the result of church doctrines... in this case the idea that Jesus is God might cause a translator to make that verse read 'I Am' as Hydroglyphx translation did.But if a translator sticks to the bibles simple truth that Jesus was a 'Son' of God, then they would be moved to look closer at the translation of that verse and would probably present a more accurate verse.Or better still, you could get a jewish person to read it for you in hebrew...now there's an idea! you can study yourself, there are plenty of reference works to help people understand hebrew....you could even learn hebrew and read it yourselfor you could find a source of information that is not contaminated by false teachings...lets face it, there are 10,000 odd christian denominations in this world...the chances are that someones gotta have it right. If evolution can do it, why can we lol Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Animals are not conscious of God and therefore they cannot break any of God laws or IOW, they cannot sin.What was the consequence of sin for adam and eve? Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned" As animals cannot sin, they must die for another reason. Not true. The tree symbolized Gods right to decide for his creatures what is good and what is bad for them. When A&E took of this fruit, they were turning their backs on their heavenly Father and rejecting his divine guidance and perfect will.According to God, what is good is to obey,
What is bad is to disobey.this is why the tree was called the 'tree of knowledge of good and bad'
When they chose to eat from it, thus disobeying God, they had knowledge of what God viewed as bad. thats exactly right...you assert though that Jesus is the Almighty God. Yes Jesus existed in heaven before he became a man on earth. He is Gods only begotten son as i have repeatedly stated.He had a prehuman existance, With God his father...and with millions of other angels in heaven. this makes no sense at all! why offer salvation for something that is unsavlagable?If we were made to do what God viewed as bad, then there would be no need to offer salvation. And what would the salvation entail if were were going to sin whether we were saved or not???To say that humans are incapable of remaining sin free is being totally defeatist. We are capable of whatever we put our mind and heart to. You probably have never murdered anyone because you view it as bad. If you viewed as bad, all the things that God views as bad, then you are capable of not sinning.Its just a matter of changing our opinions and views and bringing them in harmony with Gods. This is possible with his salvation. I didnt say he was speaking to a man. He was speaking to his Son, Jesus Christ who lived as an angelic spirit with God before he was a man. The scriptures do not prove a trinity exists. Im not going to argue about a church dogma that is purely the fabrication of the church. It has nothing to do with scripture as even their own encyclopaedias attest. not at all for the reason that the ancient manuscripts have not changed. If it werent for the ancient manuscripts remaining in tact, perhaps it would not be known that John 1:1 says that 'the Word was A god' who was 'with God in the beginning' heaven is not the ultimate goal.

the bible also does not say that God ever imposed a restriction on the animals, or that he told them what would happen if they disobeyed. The bible is a book about mankind...not animal kind. It was only to man that God imposed the restriction so why would we assume that the command also went out to animals? You can if you know what the consequences will be.I think he suffered greatly with that knowledge because he knew just how much was resting on his shoulders. If he failed, the ramifications would have been severe, mankind may have been doomed. Actually if you read the account about him the night before his death, we are told that his sweat became drops of blood.This is an actual condition of what happens so some people when they are under intense stress. Its called Forbidden. Luke 22:44 But getting into an agony he continued praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.Even though he did have a prehuman existence, this did not make him stronger then any other human. He was still born in flesh and blood and felt pain like everyone else. It was actually Constantine, a non christian, who proposed the teaching. The corrup church adopted the idea because they wanted Constantine to keep christianity's status favorable. Many old time christians opposed the teaching and it led the bishops to declare any who opposed their 'offical' teachings as heretics. Many christians were cut off from the church if they rejected this new idea.

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Encyclopdia Britannica states about the Council: Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed ... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ ... Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.

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Because the 'things from above' are spiritual things. And if one wants to be saved, they must know 'How' and 'Why' they need to be saved. Colosians 3:1-2 "Go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Keep your minds fixed on the things above, not on the things upon the earth."what are things above? They are things pertaining to God and his Son Jesus. Keeping ones mind fixed on those things does not mean that is where mankind is heading. It just means to keep your mind on spiritual things. It means to know about God, to know about Jesus to know about the kingdom and what it will do. Most importantly, to know what WE must do to be a part of it.If you look at Jesus words from the Sermon on the Mount, you'll see that he was holding out an earthly hope
In this verse, he's quoting from Psalm 37...
Matt. 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.Psalm 37:11"But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."And this is backed up by the fact that the jews also held to an earthly hope under the messianic kingdom

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The Jewish Encyclopedia, as follows: . . . the Prophets developed the hope of an ideal Messianic future through the reign of a son of the house of Davidthe golden age of paradisiacal bliss . . . It would come in the form of a world of perfect peace and harmony among all creatures, the angelic state of man before his sin (Isa. xi. 1-10, lxv. 17-25: ‘new heavens and a new earth’). . . . ‘the conversion of all creatures to become one single band to do God’s will’ is the foremost object of Israel’s Messianic hope; only the removal of ‘the kingdom of violence’ must precede the establishment of God’s kingdom. . . . The Perso-Babylonian world-year of twelve millenniums, however, was transformed in Jewish eschatology [study of the ultimate destiny of mankind and the world] into a world-week of seven millenniums corresponding with the week of Creation, the verse ‘A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday’ (Ps. xc. 5 [A.V.4]) having suggested the idea that the present world of toil (‘‘olam ha-zeh’) is to be followed by a Sabbatical millennium, ‘the world to come’ (‘‘olam ha-ba′’ ...).Vol. 5, pages 209-211. (Italics ours)

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This is the whole purpose of Jesus sacrifice...it was to give mankind the opportunity to rid itself of the effects of sin and death and eventually get mankind back to a condition where they can be reconciled to God again.Paul explains this perfectly at 1Corinthians 15:24-28: Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For God ‘subjected all things under his feet.’...But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.Edited by Peg, : fixed quote boxEdited by Peg, : No reason given.

That verse you are quoting is from Romans 5:12 which says:
Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.the 'world' here is the world of mankind. We are the world...and Paul says "Thus death spread to all 'MEN' because they had all sinned"he doesnt say anything about animals here. I agree that this is true. The first instance of God giving permission for man to eat animals is when Noah comes out of the ARk. He gives Noah permission to eat animals so long as Noah acknowleged that the life of the animal belonged to God. Noah was instructed to pour the blood into the earth in respect for the life of the animal.But this doesnt mean that before A&E they did not die. Nor does it mean that in the prophecies about the repaired earth, will nothing die. Yes the lamb will reside with the lion...but what do these represent? could they be speaking allegorically? The hebrew writers called some people 'lions' and like Jesus, they called some people 'sheep'If the lion and the sheep reside together without doing harm, it could mean that lion like people will not harm the sheeplike people. Or IOW, people of all sorts will be at peace and live in peace together. the point of the tree was twofold.
1. It gave A&E a choice. Without the tree, there would have been no free will because there would have been no way to disobey God.2. it was also a way for God to demonstrate his rulership in the garden. It represented his right to rule mankind. It stood like the white house does in washington...it is a symbol of authority. He suffered as much as anyone else did...the real question for him though is 'was it worth it'? did you realise that he did not get baptized until he was on his deathbed?
I dont think he was a christian at all...he was a political ruler who used the church to his own ends the same way that Hitler did. its not found within the text of the bible at all. Those scriptures do not say Jesus is God. If you read the bible without the knowlege you have of churh teaching, you wouldnt read those ideas into those verses....its impossible. well the bible is a book from God, about God...so you would expect it to say alot about the subject of God.
It doesnt mean though that everyone has to get into heaven and thats why it speaks about God. No,its so they can live forever on earth under the righteous rulerhsip of Gods kingdom....a kingdom for the earth
Matthew 6:10"Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth"Its so that they can be rid of the effects of death and sin
Revelation 21:4 ...and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away"And its so mankind can experience a peace they have never known.
Psalm 46:9 [God] is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth."Its so all those who have ever died can be resurrected to life on earth and have a 2nd chance of living in a perfect world. John 5:28-29 All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

most of the Scriptural references to the lion are figurative, or illustrative. The entire nation of Israel was prophetically compared to lions because of a lions invincibility and courage.Jesus called his followers his 'sheep' and the apostles called Jesus the 'lamb' of God im not trying to make it sound that way. What i mean is that If God did not provide a law in the garden, then they would have had no way to disobey and thus they would have had no choice....IOW they would not have had a way to express their free will. Revelation 4:11 "...because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created." because he is a God of order... you cant have order without an authority. Every human government knows this. Every family head knows this. is it acceptable to go to prison for a crime you didnt commit knowing that you are innocent?
Jesus was sinless and therefore his death was a complete and utter travesty of justice.And as for 'hell' its only a 'doctrine' as you say... If you want to know what hell really is, then look up the greek words hades and sheolthat is what hell really is.

thats right...and they chose out there.But their children did not get a chance to choose...they were born 'out there' and therefore they needed a way to choose 'in there or out here'
Jesus has given us that choice. thats right, sheol and hades have nothing to do with fire/brimstone etcthey simply mean the state of being dead, and the place where the dead are buried....in the ground.Its the church and its introduction of false religious ideas that teach these words to mean fire/brimstone/torture etcthey weave these ideas into the scriptures you posted and put a whole new meaning to them...something that is clearly false.

Genesis 2:16, 17 "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die"you dont get itthe verses you quoted use the words that mean the 'grave' and the 'state of being dead'it was later church teachers who twisted them to mean something they did not...and do not, mean.