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Author | Topic: Peanut Gallery | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
...and take it back to the topic in question. I have just added a moderator message there. That message includes a link back to the related discussion in this topic.
Adminnemooseus
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Over at the Adding information to the genome. thread Dr Adequate has again posted a message (Message 203) of the type that he is both famously known for and often suspended for: that Kaichos Man is just too incredibly stupid to be real.
I couldn't bring myself to suspend Dr Adequate this time because he says precisely what I'm thinking, and what I think everyone else in the thread is thinking. Kaichos Man is very polite and very sincere, but seriously, he can't *really* be that stupid, can he? Therefore he must be a troll and deserves what he gets, right? Well, I don't think Kaichos Man is a troll. I truly believe he's sincere, but I can think of no explanation for why after a couple hundred posts he seems even further from understanding our explanations. At this point I think few are hoping he'll come to agree with us, we've set much more modest goals of just getting him to the point where he grasps what we're saying. But how he can have four or five people say to him, in effect, "It's blue," and have him come back with, "So you say it's red, good, we're making progress," is just unfathomable. One comment from a friend I had lunch with yesterday: "It sounds like he can maintain understanding of only a single sentence at a time." --Percy Edited by Percy, : Added link to Dr Adequate's message.
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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Hi Percy,
I think there's a very simple explanation; that avatar picture of the chimp with the phone is really him. So on that basis, he's actually doing quite well. Mutate and Survive
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined:
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Hi, Percy.
Percy writes: One comment from a friend I had lunch with yesterday: "It sounds like he can maintain understanding of only a single sentence at a time." So, do you think we'd be more successful with short messages taking a strategic, one-step-at-a-time approach? Maybe that makes it Great Debate material? -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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I honestly have no idea what might work. Though it makes no sense, to me his behavior is consistent with someone who is working hard to misunderstand what we're saying, sometimes so clumsily as to be beyond belief. If it's true that he's willfully misunderstanding us, then how would we get him to stop? I honestly don't know.
Or what if he really isn't capable of understanding? Ignorance can be remedied, but inability to comprehend? Or what if he's a troll? If he's a troll then he's putting on the best act of sincerity I've ever seen, and I can't think of a counter to that, either. Would a one-on-one setting help? Maybe. One thing's for sure, if we keep doing the exact same thing while expecting something different to happen then it's us that's stupid. --Percy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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On the other hand, consider EMA's current behaviour on The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell, where not only is he obviously misreading the Bible (to the point where it looks as if he is deliberately ignoring the text) his posts are littered with disparaging comments directed at anyone who disagrees.
I can name some past members with equally bad problems (infamously Randman, for one). This is not just an isolated incident with one individual.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
In other words, "Buck up, in some threads it's much worse!"
Seriously, that's a Faith and Belief thread, I don't usually poke my head in there. If you get to the point where you think moderator help would help then post to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread and one of the other moderators will check it out. --Percy
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2725 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined:
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Hi, PaulK.
PaulK writes: On the other hand, consider EMA's current behaviour on The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell, where not only is he obviously misreading the Bible (to the point where it looks as if he is deliberately ignoring the text) his posts are littered with disparaging comments directed at anyone who disagrees. Tells you mountains about the psychology behind religious belief, doesn't it? For another example, read my posts on the Book of Mormon thread before Iano arrived to calm things down. Fundamentalist beliefs make people into nutcases and provide a strong counter to the normal, healthy process of cognitive dissonance. Like Percy said, misunderstanding like that takes lots of practice to perfect. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Percy,
I honestly have no idea what might work. Though it makes no sense, to me his behavior is consistent with someone who is working hard to misunderstand what we're saying, sometimes so clumsily as to be beyond belief. I think what you are seeing are the effects of a firmly held belief that evolution is wrong, so therefore it cannot make sense. From this vantage point the purpose of reading texts and explanations is to find problems with them, chinks in the armor. Because this is the focus, learning what evolution really says is not important. Instead arguments are read only to find their weak points.
Confirmation Bias Cognitive dissonance Cognitive Dissonance can also make reading comments from people presenting contradictory information difficult, as the perception is that it must be wrong and attention wanders. Evidence of this situation is when people make mistakes in reference to the contrary posts: they get the information wrong, not because they are stupid or trying to be difficult, but because the information is having trouble getting past the barriers people erect to protect their beliefs. This behavior is not restricted to FUNDIEs (Fundamentalists under numerous delusions involving evolution), but to anyone with strongly held beliefs and having to deal with contrary information.
Worldview I've likened a world view to a single cell organism, where some ideas get through the cell membrane easily and others are kept out by defense mechanism/s. There are "trigger" words and phrases that turn on the defense mechanisms (evolution and abortion are two), while rephrasing the concept in neutral words can promote discussion. YECs generally accept variation, adaptation and descent, seemingly unaware that this is evolution. Information is another topic where the creationist\idist preconception (doesn't matter where it originates) interferes with discussion about mutations and variations in populations. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2133 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Good essay, RAZD.
But you left out "willful ignorance." The simple definition: deliberately ignoring anything that doesn't fit with one's a priori beliefs. This is similar to willful blindness in law:
quote:Creationists simply ignore, and thus can deny, that which doesn't fit their a priori beliefs. They tend not to study science for that very reason, and frequently dispute the scientific method because it leads to the "wrong" answers. They don't have to study science--they just know its wrong. Believing this, they don't need to confront evidence. The evidence or assumptions or something there is wrong because the answer is wrong. That's all one needs to know. Willful ignorance leads to such gems as "the second law of thermal documents" and "the odds against evolution are 1720" (examples from another website). If it wasn't so funny it'd be laughable! Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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CosmicChimp Member Posts: 311 From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland Joined: |
I've been reading Schiller lately in the original German. Every sentence is like a saying. True wisdom in every word. This is similar to your (RAZD's) posts actually, each is a POTM.
I sort of 'nod-off' often while reading YEC explanations so I know exactly what you are describing above. But my mind is nevertheless always open for hidden truths!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Coyote,
But you left out "willful ignorance." Actually I think what is seen as willful ignorance is the result of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance and the strength of belief, such that it is the inability of concepts to pierce the worldview wall rather than a conscious choice for ignorance.
If it wasn't so funny it'd be laughable! I've seen similar behavior in non-YECs. To me it is a failure of education to promote open-minded skepticism and logic as necessary tools of education and critical thinking. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi CosmicChimp
I've been reading Schiller lately in the original German. Every sentence is like a saying. True wisdom in every word. This is similar to your (RAZD's) posts actually, each is a POTM. Thanks. Wish I knew more about it. Makes me wonder if we couldn't have one of our resident experts provide a seminar on the topic of these issues. All I know is what I read and what I observe. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Percy, just when you thought it couldn't get worse ...
Though it makes no sense, to me his behavior is consistent with someone who is working hard to misunderstand what we're saying, sometimes so clumsily as to be beyond belief. If it's true that he's willfully misunderstanding us, then how would we get him to stop? One can always use him as a bad example, and a foil for talking past him to the larger audience. His latest post for example ... Message 208 ... Wow. (picks up jaw). Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
I assumed the bit about Lucy was a joke, I certainly hope it was.
TTFN, WK
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