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Author | Topic: String! Theory! What is it good for ?!? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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What predictions, if any, does M-theory make that could eventually be tested String theory predicts that there is something inside quarks (roughly speaking) - as there was something inside the atom, nucleus, etc.
and by what methods? A large enough collider. I don't know how big though. I think I once heard Michio say that an enormous stellar collider would be adequate - I think I heard something like that. But there you go - a prediction and a method. All in due time I guess. Also, I notice you quoted my "string predicts gravity" statement. While yes, like cavediver said, I couldn't explain that in any detail, I should say that I think you misunderstood. What I meant was that the higher dimensional equations in String Theory predicts gravity. I'll step back and cavediver can explain it - so we can both learn. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I thought string theory predicted that particles or waveforms or whatever they are like quarks, which we like to think of as dimensionaless points, are actually one-dimensional lines; Yea, like I said, roughly speaking there are things inside quarks. That 'thing' is a vibrating one dimensional string. The way you would find out would be with a large enough collider. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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The engineering that went into the designing and building of the LHC was primarily based on Newtonian mechanics, classical thermodynamics, and Maxwell's equations, all falsified theories. The engineers did not have to differ to relativistic quantum field theory or general relativity, two theories that have yet to be falsified, in the design process. Are you saying that the LHC doesn't incorporate SR...? If you are, this is incorrect. Relativistic mass is a fundamental aspect of the LHC due to the high momentum the particles are taken to. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Sorry, I wasn't trying to be clever at your expense here - it was a dig at Iblis. What I meant was that it is highly non-trivial that String Theory predicts gravity, and asking a (interested and informed) layman to explain further is rather naive. No worries, cavediver. I knew it was toward Iblis. I'm glad you have taken the time to explain it further. I knew when I said it I didn't know the depth to which it dealt with gravity, I'm actually glad Iblis brought it to our attention and got a conversation started on it.
It's like hunting for a ten dollar bill, that you thought you'd placed in a coat in a wardrobe, and in the process you find that the wardrobe leads you into the inner-vault of Fort Knox That is an awesome analogy! - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
not sure that it makes the needed dimensions for string theory any more believable Then you didn't understand the post. Let me ask you, why do you believe the 4 dimensions of relativity exist? Do you consider time a dimension, if so, why? - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I think your point is irrelevant. Regardless of what you think, can you answer it?
The only reason for believing in these other dimensions that string theory proposes is because without them the numbers don't add up. And no one can even agree on exactly how many extra dimensions we need to add. I should think one would need a better reason for imagining extra dimensions other than simply because numbers don't add up. And the same could have been said for relativity in its early conception, yet it is now the most confirmed theory is physics. Your inability to currently comprehend it is not a problem for string theory, its a problem for you.
Its like my earlier analogy of 2+2=9. If I said the reason I know there must be other dimensions is because in this dimension 2+2 does not equal 9, so therefore there simply must be other dimensions, because that's what my theory says. I don't think you understand enough about string theory to realize how nonsensical that analogy is. Do you understand that the 'dimensions' in question are still part of our normal reality?
Besides which, I would perhaps philosophically take disagreement that time is an actual dimension in the strictest sense of the word. Then you would be 100% wrong, and about 100 years behind science.
A dimension is a physical space that can be located by specifying its location. I think if we are speaking clearly, time is not a dimension, because we can not define where it is. So not only do you feel string theory is wrong, you also feel that relativity and Einstein were/are wrong?
There is certainly a heck of a lot more evidence for a God then there is for any imagined dimensions! Ok - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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You don't like to follow the debate properly, do you?
Define dimension then. What does that mean? In what sense? How about the wiki definition just to keep it easy: dimension quote: Good?
And BTW, defining time as something other than a dimension doesn't negate relativity. I don't understand what that means ... what else would you define it as? And the point to what I meant by time being a dimension, is that the numbers that you claim don't work in string without the other dimensions, in the same sense, don't work either in relativity without thinking of time as another, or the 4th, dimension. But once Einstein did this, his equations made sense, and then experiments confirmed it. It is now used in many of our current technology.
You can if you like, but it doesn't change whether or not you feel hot. It would change whether or not you land on the moon, or whether or not your GPS worked. It is very important.
And you didn't answer the question-why do you believe in other dimensions when you can't see, touch, or experience them? It is not a matter of 'belief', it is a matter of following the evidence where it points. I can't see, touch or experience dinosaurs either, yet the evidence tells me they existed. Your question would be better asked like this: Why are you trying to understand multi-dimensional theories in physics? And my answer would be: Because the evidence seems to suggest that they exist. That is all I could honestly say about it - and, like with any other theory, time will tell if they are correct. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Are you using the default position on this website of calling foul every time you feel yourself getting trapped in a debate? I didn't know such a default existed, and I've been here for 2 years. I'm wondering how you figured that out in just a month? I was just commenting on the fact that you answer questions with questions, then demand that your questions be answered first. But anyway...
I believe he is talking about extra dimensions here, what do you think? Yes, extra dimensions, or, extra coordinates. I think you may be confusing the word 'dimension' with the sci-fi concept of it, where its some other place outside of the universe.
So if you are using this as your definition of dimensions, tell me what are the minimum number of coordinates needed to specify each point within time? Does that even make any sense at all. 1, as has been explained already. And yes, it makes perfect sense - it didn't the first time I heard it, but after studying it it eventually did.
Gee, I dunno, I might use the definition of time to define time. Right, and what is time? - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2977 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I am not attempting to be obtuse, its a real point. There is no point when time actually is, is there? Time is either coming from somewhere, or leaving somewhere, time doesn't have an instant when it becomes a fixed point. This is obviously completely off-topic but there is actually an open thread about what time is in the Big Bang/Cosmolgy forum - you can ask questions there. However, here's a great 5 part series by physicist Brian Cox on time: Hope this helps, if not, you can ask questions in the 'Time' thread. - Oni
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