Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

lol, i thought you didnt like it when people add to the story your right. If they could die, then they were never immortal. Immortality means one cannot die. God is immortal and the Jesus are immortal as are those who rule as Kings with Christ...yet everyone else including angels are mortal. there you go adding to the story again lol

i think it has always been presented as a change in relationship in this thread. For as long as a person if obedient and loyal to God, the relationship with him is maintained. As soon as the person turns aside and becomes disobedient and disloyal, they loose their relationship. Remember the holy spirit is a byproduct of having a relationship with God. Its something he CAN give you when you need it or request it, but its not something that you automatically received just because you have a relationship with God. it doesnt mention that they didnt need to be pardoned eitherThe answer is that they were not forgiven for their error. If they had of been forgiven, they would have stayed in the garden.

even though God God pronounced judgment on the woman in Gen3:16? I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you. You dont think this shows a change in their relationship?do you think that if God and Eve still had a good relationship, he would allow her to suffer in this way or any other way? It is the very thing he has promised to remove at Isiah 35.or do you think that if he and Adam still had a good relatioship he would have imposed this sentence on him, Gen 3:17"And to Adam he said: Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.why send them out of the garden if they were still in a relatinship with him?why allow them to suffer under these new conditions if they were forgiven for their error?God does not do that. He pronounced his judgement on them and sent them away becasue they no longer had a relatioship with him. They lost that when they disobeyed him. The spiritual relationship they previously enjoyed was due to faithfully obeying, but once they disobeyed, they lost it and therefore became spiritually dead towards God. Spiritual death means to loose Gods favor. It is a condition of having no relationship with God, no understanding of God, no love for God.to be clear - holy spirit is given to Gods worshipers but it doesnt mean that they automatically get it just because they have a relationship with him. Individuals benefit from it as a whole when they are being led by holy spirit, but if those who we are following do not have Gods spirit, then we will not benefit.When isreal proved unfaithful and turned away from God, he removed himself from their midst and would not lead them. This led to his spirit (holy spirit) not being with them. Think about the good kings in Isreal who had holy spirit such as Solomon and David...the nation benefited greatly because worhship was correctly maintained and Gods blessing was the result.This did not mean that every individual was given holy spirit. When moses led Isreal, he was full of holy spirit becaues he had a big job to do and was given great powers. But not everyone had such powers. Evidence that not every individual had holy spirit is also seen by the fact that many of them rebelled and complained against moses. Many lacked faith, many wanted to go back to egypt...so they obviously did not have Gods spirit as individuals, however as a whole, the nation were being led by holy spirit and received the benefits of that spirit. Yes, they had introduced idol worship at the temple in Jerusalem

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Ezekiel 14:1-5 "And men from the elderly ones of Israel proceeded to come to me and sit down before me. 2Then the word of Jehovah occurred to me, saying: 3Son of man, as regards these men, they have brought up their dungy idols upon their heart, and the stumbling block causing their error they have put in front of their faces. Shall I be inquired of at all by them? 4Therefore speak with them and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: Any man at all of the house of Israel that brings up his dungy idols upon his heart and that places the very stumbling block causing his error in front of his face and that actually comes to the prophet, I, Jehovah, I will let myself be brought to answer him in the matter according to the multitude of his dungy idols, 5for the purpose of catching the house of Israel by their heart, because they have withdrawn themselves from me through their dungy idolsall of them.

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thats true, the account speaks no more of them so anything we might add is only speculation. They are no more mentioned in the bible until the NT when Paul explains that Adam became a father giving death to all his offspring, whereas Jesus became a father giving life all those who excersize faith in him.So if you take that into consideration, the remembrance of Adams sin remains and therefore it is likely that Adam was never forgiven for his wrongdoing. no its not a later teaching. The idea is throughout the OT and it is developed through the messianic prophecies. Mankind was subjected to a sinful condition
Ps 51:5Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me

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Ps49:7Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him;
8(And the redemption price of their soul is so precious
That it has ceased to time indefinite)

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9That he should still live forever [and] not see the pit.

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14Like sheep they have been appointed to She′ol itself;
Death itself will shepherd them;
And the upright ones will have them in subjection in the morning,
And their forms are due to wear away;
She′ol rather than a lofty abode is for each one.

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15However, God himself will redeem my soul from the hand of She′ol,

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the isrealites firmly believed in the need for atonement and salvation from sin and death. They believed in the resurrection back to life on earth because that is what A&E lost. the spiritual part is in that they lost their relationship with God. Genesis does say they died ON THAT DAY...yet they didnt die physically on that day.thats why i asked you what other way could they have died. Think about it and compare it with the rest of the OT and the way the isrealites were considered dead when they left God. Ezekeil is an attestation to this 'spiritual' death.The people he gave his message to were not dead, yet he called them dead 'a pile of dead bones'Spiritual death is the result of loosing favor with God. We loose favor with God when we act disobediently. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

you havnt addressed the Ezezkeil scripturesYour claim at the outset was that the OT doesnt support spiritual death. Genesis is the OT just as Ezekiel is the OTso please address the Ezekeil scriptures, explain why ezekeil said the nation was a 'pile of dead bones'How can a living nation be a pile of 'dead bones' if not physically, how? & Why?

Hi ICANT,Im sorry, i dont want to contradict you here, but for the sake of the discussion i will Ecclesiaties 3:19"For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [RU'ACH], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity.

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20All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. 21Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth? "Spirit is Ru'ach in hebrew and Pneu'ma in greek. The meanings of both of these words is 'breath' which is linked to 'life'Yes, we all have breath, which means Yes we all have spirit.
But if you take the breath away, the person dies and the breath/spirit is no more.and when the spirit/breath is gone, the unanimated body returns to the dust from where it came. Spirit is what animates us, its what makes us alive. When that spirit is taken away, we expire because the spirit is no more.Psalm 104:29 says of earth’s creatures, human and animal: If you [God] take away their spirit, they expire, and back to their dust they go.Isaiah 42:5 says that God is the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit (Ra'uch) to those walking in it. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

hi ICANT The english translators chose the word 'spirit' where the hebrew writers used the word 'ru'ach'

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Strongs Hebrew Dictionary
Original Word: ר֫וּחַ
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Short Definition: air

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Definition
breath, wind, spirit
NASB Word Usage
(1)air (2), anger (1), blast (2), breath (31), breathless* (1), cool (1), courage (1), despondency* (1), exposed (1), grief* (1), heart (1), inspired (1), mind (3), motives (1), points (1), quick-tempered* (1), side (4), sides (2), Spirit (76), spirit (127), spirits (3), strength (1), temper (2), thoughts* (1), trustworthy* (1), wind (98), winds (7), windy (2), wrath (1).

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did you read the scritpures I posted? They show pretty well that the 'spirit' is something that dies. And as you can see from the hebrew dictionary, ru'ach has nothing to do with any living part of a person.I believe the church's introduced the idea of a spirit because they started teaching that people were going to heaven and therefore everyone would become like Jesus, a 'spiritual' person....a person who is like 'air'.from what i've learnt, this is not a bible teaching and 'spirit' certainly did not imply a living lifeforce apart from the body. It was known by the writers of the bible as it is described above...as an invisible force that brings life to the body.Genesis 6:17 says "God proceeded to blow into the mans nostrils the breath (ru'ach) of life"
This meant that God put into Adam’s lifeless body the spark of life or the force of life, which is active in all earthly creatures. Also at James 2:26 it says "the body without spirit is dead" Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

me either! im sorry it was 2:7...not sure where i got 6:17 from lolbut im glad you know the verse i was quoting anyway. Your'r right, my mistake on that one. The word used in this verse is 'nishmath' from neshamah. But this word still means 'breath'so it was the breath in Adam that caused him to become a living 'soul'This still backs up the point im making about 'spirit' but the information you just posted gave the meaning of the words in genesis and they mean nothing that could be interpreted as eternal living spirit of the sort you are talking about. In the greek scriptures, the greek word pneu′ma is 'spirit' and it carries the same meaning as the above hebrew words including the Hebrew word ru'ach.... breath or blowIm curious as to when the meaning of the words changed from 'breath' to something is a living thing?

And yet Daniel was the only piece of writing who named king Belshazzar as the king who was ruling when Babylon was defeated. Ancient historians identified Nabonidus as the last of the Babylonian kings so critics claimed that Daniel was completely wrong. Actually in 1850 it was a bible critic named Ferdinand Hitzig who claimed that Belshazzar was a figment of the writers imagination.Do you know what was later found in Iraq on a clay cylinder? Thats right, a reference to an unknown king called 'Belsarussur' who was the grandson of Nebudcanezza and son of Nabonidus.If daniel really was written in 164 bce, there is no way he would have mentioned Belshazzar because even earlier historian did not name belshazzar as ruler. Daniel knew it was Belshazzar who ruled because it was this very Belshazzar who offered Daniel to be the 3rd ruler in the kingdom.But meh, critics will always claim the bible is fake even when such evidence comes to light. Let them doubt. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic

HI ICANT Jesus indicated that the same man who was made 'from the beginning' was also the same man who was given a wife and whom he called 'Eve' Matt. 19:3-6 Did you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’ If Jesus believed Adam to be the man who was created in the 'beginning' then I am not going to assume that it was some other man. Im sure you wouldnt say that in the case of Rev 13:14, the pneuma is Gods Holy Spirit.Revelation 13:14And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15And there was granted it to give breath (Greek pneu′ma; Latin., spiritum; hebrew ru′ach.) to the image of the wild beast..."Also in Habbakak it is used in relation to false gods.Habbakak 2:19 "Woe to the one saying to the piece of wood: O do awake! to a dumb stone: O wake up! It itself will give instruction! Look! It is sheathed in gold and silver, and there is no breath (hebrew Ruach, Greek Pneuma, Latin Spiritus) at all in the midst of it"

the hebrew word for man is adam...it means 'of the earth' 1.Where does the bible say that Adam recieved an eternal spirit?2.Where does the bible say Satan has an eternal spirit?3.What is the beast are you referring to?

Hi Jazzns Archeology backs up Daniels claim. There is a babylonian cuniform tablet that reads in part:

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He entrusted the ‘Camp’ to his oldest (son), the firstborn [Belshazzar], the troops everywhere in the country he ordered under his (command). He let (everything) go, entrusted the kingship to him and, himself, he [Nabonidus] started out for a long journey, the (military) forces of Akkad marching with him; he turned towards Tema (deep) in the west. Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. Pritchard, 1974, p. 313

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So this description of how Nabonidus put Belshazzar at the helm disproves critics claims that Belshazzar was not a king of Babylon. He was a co-ruler with his father thus he was in a kingly position and this makes him the king of Babylon. Nabonidus was unrelated by blood to Nebuchadnezzar thats true. But the only way he could have legally taken the throne was if he married into the royal family. Herodotus reported in the 5th century that the mother of the younger Labynetos (Nabonidus) was the queen Nitocris who is commonly thought to have been the daughter of Nebuchadnezzar. This makes Belshazzar Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson by marriage and in patriachal societies, it was perfectly accurate to call him Nebuchadnezzars son. If you consider the slaughter of almost everyone in the city as a non violent take over, then i'm very surprised. If Herodotus of the 5th century said that Nabonidus was the ruler and did not mention Belshazzar, how could a later writer have known about Belshazzar? If Herodotus had known of Belshazzars rulership, then surely he would have named him as such...if he didnt, why do you think a later writer would have known of Belshazzar?remember, Archeology has backed up Belshazzars position as a king so we know he definately was ruling Babylon along with his aged father. This really adds weight to the bible as an historically accurate record of the past. It was more accurate then the famous and highly resprect Herodotus. is that speculation or do you have some references? Edited by Peg, : fix quote boxEdited by AdminPD, : Off Topic

spiritual. those who became christian made a conscious effort to desist from sinful works...works of flesh. this brought them to life spiritually. Eph. 2:1-3: It is you [Christians] God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.Here are some more scriptures that show that people can be in a condition considered to be dead [b]Matt 8:22 "Jesus said to him: Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead"
______________________________________________Colossians 2:13 "Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses"
_________________________________________________________1Peter 4:5But these people will render an account to the one ready to judge those living and those dead. 6In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead"____________________________________________Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

such as? It was quite normal for a son to take the name of the patriachal head of the family. In the case of Belshazzar, his patriachal head was nebudchadnezza.Jesus was called the 'son of David'King david lived centuries before but Jesus was still called his son because of being in the family line of King David who was a patriachal head of his family.The 12 tribes of Isreal are named after the patriachal father. If you were born into the tribe of Judah, you were a son of Judah. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic

is a ruler not a king?A king is a sovereign who has authority to rule over othersWas Belshazzar a sovereign? Yes, his mother was Queen, his father was king, his grandfather was kingthat makes him a king. explain how a 5th century historian did not know about belshazzar, but a 2nd century writer didAnd you are simply assuming that Daniel was written in the 2nd century but can you prove that?I dont think you can. Can you explain why the scrolls of Daniel were in circulation when Alexander the Great conqured jerusalem in the 3rd century? According the the Jewish historian Josephus, Alexander visited the Temple in Jerusalem and was shown the scroll of Daniel which contained information about him.Please explain how this can be and provide proof. a new thread is a good idea. Its an interesting topic to discuss...it would be intersting to see both sides of evidence for late and early authorship. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic