Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

I don't mind debating honestly. Was thier a clear initial attempt to define "biblical" in the OP? "Spiritual Death is not Biblical"Latter PD advized that in essence that the Torah was considered the "biblical". The Title was ambiguous as to the scope of "biblical". And you chid me for not wanting to debate honestly?Here's my initial response to the charge that "spiritual death" is not biblical.When Paul writes "Even when we were DEAD in offenses, made us ALIVE together with Christ ..."(Eph. 2:5) is that an example of the unbiblical "spiritual death" objected to ?The sinner was DEAD and with Christ was made ALIVE. And "spiritual death" is unbiblical ??Oh, but maybe we mean just in the Torah it is unbiblical ?? Is it left purposely unclear ? I think one poster did attempt to define boundaries with PD.Then we have this refering to a verse in the Torah and a verse outside of it in Ezekiel: Concerning Exodus 20:5 and Ezek. 18:20 someone may have written about them. I don't think I have.Going back to the usual objection from Genesis, I may have said that Adam and Eve suffered a spiritual death when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. At least I never said that because of that the passage did NOT deal with "real time physical punishment or death".On Genesis 3 I think I have said that death began to work in them from the deadening of their human spirit and climaxing in their physical death. Their hearts did not stop beating on the day they ate. But something in them died. Death began to operate until one day years latter they physically died.Now on the Ezekiel and Exodus passages. Does PD mean someone applied the verses to a death not physical? I mean a New Testament teacher may use an Old Testament passage in the way of application. Application for edification is different from interpretation. I would like to see the specific example of treatment of the two passages to see what PD is talking about.Then we have this: I think PD means the Exodus verse and the Ezekiel verse.There is not a lot to comment on here or object to unless one is more aware with the perhaps the Documentary Hypothesis. I think the man's name is Wellhousen (spelling?)? When I read something like this I assume that the higher criticism of Wellhausen is in the thought of the writer. In your reference to the dictionary you essentially told me the same thing I would have read by going to Ezekiel. Thanks. That is exactly what I said. You have to wait to get to Isaiah or Ezekiel. If you're reading sequencially for the first time without reference to a dictionary, you would know when you got to Ezekiel. I don't see a devastating defeater to what I said. Thankfully up to now all the Webster definitions come right out of the Hebrew Bible where I think the clearest indication of what was meant should be located. Now we get down to #3 - European art. Watch out. Anything may go, like ox horns on Moses or Noah's ark looking like a ocean liner rather than a box. My point is that you need another biblical source to inform you. I don't see how you have negated that. As a serious Bible student I would go with the earlier definitions because THEY reference the Bible.But I fail to see what you have proved here contrary to me saying the whole explanation of things in Genesis is not always found in Genesis.Maybe it was not the best example for me to use. However, back to the point. "Spiritual Death not Biblical".Does biblical include the Gospel of John ? Or is that LESS biblical but Genesis is REALLY biblical ? Is that the idea ? We Christians believe that Christ is refering to the spiritually DEAD who may be physically alive. They hear the voice of the Son of God and receive spiritual life.The physically dead are refered to in this latter passage: It is understandable that a person, especially a relatively ethical person would object to being discribed as spiritually dead. I would be offended had it been put to me that I was spiritually dead. I resented it when a Christian told me I was a lost sheep. I can imagine how I would have felt at being discribed as spiritually dead.Touchiness aside, we see that the good man Cornelius (Acts 10) needed to receive the gospel preached by Peter and receive the Holy Spirit. He gave alms to the poor. He feared God with his whole household. His good deeds God said, went up as a memorial. Why then did he still need to go to Peter to hear the Gospel of the crucified and resurrected Savior ?He needed to be regenerated. He needed Christ as life. He needed what Nicodemus needed, to be born again. He was one of the dead which needed to hear the voice of the Son of God so that he might have Christ as his indwelling divine life.Spritiual death and spiritual life are biblical.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

But IF that is true, does that make the concept of "spiritual death" unbiblical?And a deeper understanding of Adam's death as latter expounded in the Bible does not make the concept of "spiritual death" unbiblical.That is what I would say. Okay. I'm thinking about it. I have no comment right now. I am thinking about it.

Yes Paul's writing is long and involved. That to many of us is no reason to teach a deadened human spirit or spiritual deadness, spiritual death is not biblical.If you wish to say "Well, because Paul's writing is long and involved there is no biblical spiritual death" you go ahead. I would not be taking that route.And arguing over it with you I think will not be profitable. But let it be known that some unsacred poets and writers would agree that human life is lacking something though they do not know what it is.Jimi Hendix is an example in a song "I Don't Live Today". In the song he said that he did not LIVE today. He said that whatever he had it was not real life because he felt like he was living at the bottom of a grave.Now I am not saying Jimi Hendrix is equal to the New Testament. I am only saying that the sentiment of some people has been that they did not have a full life, a real life. They felt something missing.If you ask me, I say this is the sense in man of what we might call "spiritual death".I would also like to say that "spiritual death" is not restricted to being a "bad" person. Nicodemus "Victor of the People" by name, was told by Jesus that he needed to be born again. He was a model of his community. But Jesus said man, regardless how ethically good, needed to be born again.A dimension, one whole dimension of human life is "dead" to the unregenerated person. For this reason Jesus said that the DEAD would hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear would live.I will not in this post go into your reasoning from verse 11. I do not feel the need to coerce you to see things as I see them. I may consider your complaint latter and write something for the sake of others who are undecided.I would only add one other matter in this particular post. I don't think or claim that the Bible can be theologically systematized to a total degree. You spoke earlier of inconsistency. And I would agree that 100% total systematic consistency is probably not to be found in the Bible.So I do not attempt to totally systematize theologically the Bible. The very phrased "Died to," "have died," "about to die," "death" are used in a number of different ways.And to look for a total theological systemazation I think is unwise. I do not think, however, that because a total systemization of the subject can be derived that that gives me ground to say "Well, spiritual death is unbiblical." You have a number of people here giving opinions and it may take more time to sort things out.Just like it has been clear in other threads that Evolution is an ambiguous concept used by some "free-thinkers" or agnostics.The lengthy expositons of Paul, the shortage of absolute consistency or systemization, or the varied approaches to the phrase "spiritual death" are not sufficient for me to say "Spiritual Death is Unbiblical".What was dead when Jesus said the DEAD shall hear the voice of the Son of God ? Was the body dead? Was the soul dead? I think not. The human spirit is the best explanation. " ... and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6)What is the human spirit before it is born of the Spirit? It can be discribed as "spiritually dead". I'm sorry.Speaking of His resurrection Jesus promises "Because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:19)But wait a minute. The disciples will LIVE regardless if Jesus lives or not. Right? If He resurrects they will live. But if he stays dead they ALSO will live, unless they are murdered with Him.For Jesus to say that because He lives they also will live srongly implies that they are brought into a new realm of spiritual life. To live in Christ is now life to them and what they had before being in Christ was not counted as this spiritual life. There was a deadness that needed to be enlivened. They were regenerated through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Peter 1:3).They were "made ... alive ... together with Christ" .For them "the mind set on the flesh is DEATH, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace" (Romans 8:6)What kind of death is this if not spiritual death? What kind of life is he refering to if not spiritual life? I don't have a lot of that history at my finger tips without further research and I have no comment. You have a lot of church history on the matter phaseology. This does not, to me, demonstrate an unbiblical concept of a physically living person having a spiritual death in them.I don't think a terrible lot of church history needs to be mastered to determine the biblical ground for a spiritual deadness and spiritual enlivening in the Bible. This could be your limiting your knowledge by what you have experienced. You select definitions which confirm your experience and claim that they are the most reasonable linquistic principles on which to judge the matter.You have right to limit your understanding to your experience and provide supporting dictionary definitions. But that does not limit the Bible's usage.And saying "Well spirit is just mood or attitude. So the Bible only means mood or attitude or tendency" is not adaquate for many of us. And based on these thoughts we won't be saying "spiritual death" or "spritiual life" is unbiblical.Language is enfluenced by culture. And the experience of God brings man into kind of new culture. At best one can say "Well, I do not WANT to know about any new culture. And the dictionary says spirit means mood and attitude so that is all I intend to understand the Bible to be talking about."You want to prescribe linquistic limits to support a theological position. I don't think these limitations will render a good number of Bible passages to make that much sense. These are dumbing downs of the Bible. They may be comforting to the Humanist. But I think the loss is theirs. You probably could get away with paraphrases like this in English.Go ahead and read it that way if you want to. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't know what you mean, if I would stop using it. I entered into the discussion and used it.The Bible uses it. Jesus used it. The apostle Paul used it. If Jesus didn't want to say "the DEAD shall hear the voice of the Son of God ..." then He would have said something else.It is very important that people understand that Christ is the life. "I am the resurrection and the life." (John 11:25)"In Him was life ..." (John 1:4)He is the Bread of life and the Word of life which the apostles handled. He is the water of life and the living water in His pneumatic form. He came that we might have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10).In contrast to all these and many more passages that show Christ and God are the uncreated and eternal life the matter of spiritual death is spoken of.The Bible speaks of death in order to help us realize that God Himself is life. The created life of man needs the uncreated life which is God Himself in Christ as the Spirit. The Bible speaks of the dispensing of this Person - the Life, into man.Against this marvelous contrast it must speak of the seriousness of being without God as life. So it mentions death not only in the physical sense but in the spiritual sense. If you are asking me to hide the truth of spiritual death as anywhere revealed in the Bible, I do not intend to do that.And Adam died on the day he ate of the fruit which he was told not to eat. I do not know how much Moses understood about this. If he meant only the stopping of the heart, that is OK.But the mystery which was hidden from generations has now been manifested to the apostles and prophets in spirit. And if the New Testament apostles say death came into the world through Adam, and Jesus says the DEAD should be left to bury the dead, and the DEAD must hear the voice of the Son of God and live, we may understand something more significant about Adam's process of death.Paul writes: "To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel and to ENLIGHTEN ... all that they may see what the economy of the mystery is WHICH HAS BEEN HIDDEN IN GOD, who created all things." (Eph. 3:9,10)We need to be enlightened to the mystery of the unsearchable riches of Christ by the apostles. Part of that enlightenment is to see Christ is the divine life that man must receive in addition to his created life. While being alive physically he must be reborn, regenerated. And without this regeneration he has inherited spiritual death in Adam.Perhaps what the New Testament calls enlightenment you dismiss simply as "creative" writing.But this wisdom given to the apostles, Paul says was ordained by God before the foundation of the world: I do not see the apostles creatively "shoe horning" some faulty and error prone commentaries to the Old Testament. I see them speaking the oracles of God and the wisdom of God predestinated beforehand for the carrying out of God's will.If you do not understand something in the Bible, you should not fight against it. At most you put it on the back burner until you gain more understanding. That is right that I have not yet labored on a rigorous definition of spiritual death.I do not think it is really that necessary to prove that a concept of death distinct from the stopping of the physical heart, is refered to in the Bible.A rigorous definition of spiritual death, I don't think is needed, to point out that you jump the gun to announce "Spiritual Death is not Biblical".When Paul writes: do you think he is not refering to "spiritual death" ?Do you wish to dismiss this as just some "creative writing". It may depend on how seriously you take the apostles exhortation. He is speaking about unruly Christian sisters in the church life who instead of giving themselves to hope in God are consummed with being given over to pleasures.In principle that same thing refers to the Christian brothers. Now here in this passage is one of the issues of definition. I believe he is talking about people who have been regenerated. Their human spirit has been quickened with the Holy Spirit. Yet their minds are set on the old nature, the fallen flesh. Remember Paul wrote: I sympathize with you somewhat if you find this confusing. But when I see you fight against the teaching, my sympathy turns into caution because you are not humble to receive the Bible's utterances.If you do not see in these passages a "spiritual death" and more importantly a spiritual divine life, it may be that someday you will appreciate it. You are right that you could be given more backround. Did you know that the human soul and the human spirit can be divided from each other? Many places in the Old Testament are not as clear as this. But this is rather definite. The soul of man and the spirit of man are very close, even kind of stuck to each other. Both are components of the human being. Yet the word of God is a living word and operative. This word is like a sharp two-edged sword. And this living word of God can DIVIDE the human soul from the human spirit right within the person.The word of God can pierce even to the dividing asunder of SOUL and SPIRIT.Just reading this much you should be able to see that "there is a spirit in man". Aside from the soul of man, man has something called a human spirit. It is not easy to discern the difference. BUT ... the living word of God can divide the two. And as it does it can illuminate the thoughts and intentions of the heart.Man is made up of three distinct parts - spirit and soul and body: That is three parts to the human being - spirit AND soul AND body.The new birth takes place in the human spirit. Can you find me a single passage saying that the believer in Christ is born again in her soul ? I can see many passages saying the Lord or the grace of the Lord is with the human spirit. Can you find me one that says the Lord is in the soul ?Paul made a contrast between singing with his mind and singing with his spirit. He made a distinction between praying just with his mind and praying with his spirit. So the spirit is something deeper than the mind which is part of the soul. So if it is not fully developed in the Old Testament it is more revealed in the New. Man has a human soul and man has a human spirit. And the fallen man's spirit is deadened and in a comatose state.He senses that there must be something more to life. He often senses that there is something missing about life but he is not sure what it is. This is the sense of the human spirit not functioning.Christ causes the human spirit to be enlivened, regenerated, really resurrected, made alive, born anew, born from above. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit"When man is justified upon believing in Jesus Christ the human spirit is enlivened because of the righteousness that has just been imputed to him: Okay, let us look at the entire verse: Justification by faith in Christ leads to the enlivening of the deadened and comatose human spirit.I must stop here.

This is an open question to anyone.
The Apostle John writes to the Christians this: What kind of "death" do you think John is writing about ?It seems reasonable that John is not writing to Christians who have been resurrected physically from the tomb yet. So what kind of "death" could he be saying those not loving are abiding in?And what kind of "death" have those who practice the Christian love have possibly passed out of ?Could such "death" reasonably be thought of as "spiritual" ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think that this is how the apostle John meant it.You see John was the last to write a gospel. The church life had been damaged by attacks withint and without. I see John's commission to bring the Christians back to the beginning, back to the basics, back to the most fundamental aspects of their life with Jesus.In essence "Brothers we have to remember that before we meet Jesus we were spiritually dead. He is life. Our spiritual life began with Jesus. He brought us forth from this spiritual death we were in."My opinion is that much of the teaching of Jesus which John recalled he purposefully selected to convey this matter that Christ is the divine life which saved His believers from death of all kinds, especially the deadness towards God deep in the sinners.Peter was a caster of the Gospel net. John was a mender of the Gospel net. His job was to repair and restore and to mend the basics of the Gospel. "That which we have heard from the beginning concerning the Word of life."I hear what you are saying. But before Augustine, Calvin, and Billy Sunday there was the Holy Spirit. I think some of the hearers of the words of Jesus understood that without Christ they essentially had nothing - zero. They were as good as dead.They may not have been able to write the theological treatise of a Calvin or an Augustine. I do think some were convicted by the words and by Spirit of God that they needed Jesus as life. Without Him they were dead.I am not sure it is a matter of intellectual sophistication. It may be more of a matter of humility.Now you refer to a passage which I at least, have not used in this discussion. Allow me to return to these passages latter. It is a good point which I am not completely unfamiliar with.But I need time to look at the issues again. As Matthew reports I believe that some others resurrected with Jesus.Interesting though how Matthew stays with his burden and only lightly touches what he might have viewed as a distraction.This is unlike most of us who are itching to have our curiosity tickled. It is amazing to me that Matthew told us only the briefest mention of this event.While I work on your issue in Peter's writing I remind you.John says that the believers who love one another have passed out of death and into life: I do not think we need Augustine, Calvin, or Billy Sunday to understand that these believers had not yet expired. So this passing out of DEATH into (ZOE) life must be a spiritual matter.And the "is dead while living" of First Timothy 5:6 is also a matter of spiritual life and death: Give me some time to study this matter.ThanksEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This passage I think refers to the physically living and the physically dead - "the living and the dead". This corresponds to: "the Judge of the living and the dead" (Acts 10:42)
"Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead ..." (2 Tim. 4:1) If I follow you you are saying that since the contrast here is between the physically living and the physically dead then what possible room is there for the physically living to be "spiritually dead"?Physical death is refered to. Living in the spirit means not living according to the Adamic fallen nature. I do not think that (1 Peter 4:6) is an exact continuation of Peter's thought in 1 Pet. 3:19.First Peter 3:18,19 - "For Christ ... being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit in which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, ..."These spirits in prison are angelic beings who attempted to derange the human race in days of Noah. A long discussion on this I will not attempt to write now. And I realize that different teachers have different views on the problematic passage.Today, I feel that Christ announced, "proclaimed" to imprisioned evil spirits the victory achieved by God, that is, that through Christ's death on the cross God destroyed Satan and his power of darkness (Heb. 2:124; Col. 2:15). This was not a "preaching" of good news that these imprisoned spiritual beings might be saved. It Christ's declaration to them, while He was in death's realm, that they and their leader Satan had been defeated by Christ.A longer defense of this view I will not write now. I think Peter is saying in brief that when Jesus Christ died on the cross in His divinity He was made strong and not weak. And in that strength He proclaimed His victory over the fallen angels. These particular fallen angels did something so heineous that they are not allowed to roam the earth's atmosphere or heavenlies. They were imprisioned in particularly dark and low prisons. Like the maximum security's isolation unit they were so bad that they were shut up in the lowest realms for dead beings.Christ went there and announced His victory over them. - "Christ ... one the one hand put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in Spirit; in which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison."This is a brief word on a difficult passage. You may scrutinize it. But it is a cursory comment of a contraversial verse. Jesus was in Hades the realm of the dead. While there He was not weak but strong to even go to a region way, way lower where particularly evil angels of Satan were imprisoned. And there though His human part had been killed, strongly in His divine essence, He announced the victory of His death over these spirits in prison.That is one of the things He did while during those three days. When He resurrected physically, Matthew says some Old Testament believers rose with Him.Now we come to that matter of First Peter 4:5,6The dead of this passage means Christians who died. When they were physcially alive the Gospel was preached to them:The Recovery Version renders verse 6 - "For unto this [end] the gospel was announced also to [those who are now] dead, that they might be judged in the flesh according to men but live in the spirit according to God.The dead, ie. [those who are now] dead, refers to physically dead believers in Christ, who suffered persecution because of their Christian testimony, as refered to in 1:6; 2:18-21; 3:16-17; and 4:12-19.Now this next point is crucial, so pay attention. Consistent with Peter's entire attitude in his epistle this persecution was considered by Peter as GOD'S JUDGMENT.The whole of human existence involves God's judgment upon man (Psalm 90:1-12). Peter is teaching about this judgment of God and how God uses it to steer history to His eternal kingdom and the building up of His living house.To Peter "... the judgment to begin at the house of God" (1 Pet. 4:17). God has a government in which He desires that man would live by Christ a righteous life. Trials, persecutions, troubles, sufferings are all part of God's governmental discipline over mankind to steer them into this righteous and dependent life on God for the building up of His living house.Yes, the believer may be SAVED from damnation. She or he will not be judged by God as to eternal perdition. But God's purpose is not simply that man would be forgiven and saved from perdition. He has a government and a kingdom in which man is to live righteously. Few of us who come to Christ do that on our own initiative.Therefore trials, persecutions, sufferings, and even physical death are viewed by Peter as God's judgments disciplining His people to live as Christ lived, in Christ and by Christ Who is within them.So Peter is saying that the gospel was preached to some dead believers in Christ while they were physically living, that they might, on the one hand, be judged, dealt with, by God in the flesh according to men through opposers' persecution, but, on the other hand, live in their regenerated human spirit according to God by believing in Christ.This shows how strict and serious is the judgment of God in His governmental administration, If believers in Jesus, who have been obedient to the gospel, are dealt with by God's governmental judgment, how much more will those who oppose the gospel and slander the believers be judged by God's dealing (vv. 17-18): As Matthew reports I believe that some others resurrected with Jesus.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I already gave you the Ezekiel passages about a heart of stone being replaced by a heart of flesh.A heart of stone implies a dead and unresponsive non living heart. A heart of flesh in the word picture represents a living heart. The phrase spiritual death is not used. The word picture indicates that within the living flesh is a stone heart. This is a psychological and spiritual heart. The word picture of taking out the heart of stone and placing in the flesh a corresponding HEART of flesh surely indicates a living heart to match the living flesh.In Old Testament allegory spiritual life and spiritual death are portrayed in this passage.Furthermore the Spirit of God is strongly associated with raising from the dead as is seen in the immediately following chapter 37. The vision of the dry bones being brought to life by the Spirit of God reinforces the concept of the living God bringing man to life spiritually and physically: Spiritual death verses spiritual life in chapter 36.
Physical death verses physical life in chapter 37.Where in plain words in the OT is it taught that spiritual death does not exist? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Greetings ICANT, ICANT, while I agree with the proclaimation of Revelation 20:14 and John 3:18 these passages, I think, should not used to say there is no such thing as spiritual death.It will not be easy for me to explain because I am not sure if you are regarding spiritual death to mean the annhilation or non-existence of the human spirit. You seem to emphasize that the human spirit is eternal.Let me try to examine this closer with you. I will try to hit my target.Firstly, 1 John 3:14 strictly speaking, is talking about the divine love being practiced as evidence that the brothers have passed out of death into life. This precludes that some Christian brothers could not act as brothers should act. They may be born again but not practicing the divine love. They are abiding in death.John does not want the Christian brothers to abide in death.
In the same way Paul says to the Chrisians that for them to set their mind on their regenerated spirit is life and peace. But if they would be fleshy and set their mind upon the flesh, that is death.Of course for the unbleliever to set the mind on the flesh, which is all he knows to do, is death. Yet even for the one who has been saved eternally, to be immature, and to set his mind on the old nature instead of his regenerated spirit is likewise death.Regardless of who you are then: "For the mind set on the flesh is death ..." (Rom. 8:6a)The one who has received Jesus Christ has an alternative way to live, to set the mind on her regenerated spirit. So ... "For the mind set on the flesh is death, BUT ... the mind set on the spirit is life and peace."Likewise John exhorts the Christian brothers, for whom the question of eternal redemption has already been settled - the evidence of them having passed out of death into life is the practice of the divine love.The divine love issues from the divine life. The one without the divine life cannot practice the divine love. He of course may love very much, his wife, children, friends. And atheists or unbeleivers of course can love. But it is not the divine love in the divine fellowship of the childen of God for one another.John exhorts the disciples that to restrain this divine love from flowing out "shut up your bowls" is to abide in death. This has to be spiritual death. The disciple has spiritual life in his spirit. But he does not abide in his spirit or set his mind on his spirit. He still lives practically like an unbeliever and he abides in spiritual death.In this passage Paul speaks of judicial redemption as in being forgiven or reconciled to God positionally, PLUS a salvation in life "organically": As to the past the Christian has been reconciled to God through Christ's death. Judicially and positionally he has been justified. Yet dispositionally he will experience something "much more". That is to be dispositionally "saved in His life".His having been reconciled judicially is the bases upon which the "much more" salvation in the realm of Christ's life is carried out.Practically speaking, to the Apostle John warns that the Christian should practice the flowing out of the divine love or they may be abiding in spiritual death. They neglect the "much more" salvation in the sphere of Christ being lived out as life. I agree. Here you capitalize Spirit which indicates to me the Spirit of God, ie. the Holy Spirit probably. The "eternal Spirit" does not die. He cannot be annhilated for He is God. He cannot pass into non-existence because He has immortality. He always was and always will be.From that you say all spirits are eternal, therefore there can be no spiritual death.This may be difficult to handle in one post. But to say that the human spirit cannot be annhilated "die" or cannot pass into non-existence "die" does not preclude that their can be no spiritual death.For John to say that the Christian disciple who does not practice the divine love is to abide in death, does not mean that his spirit is actually non-existent. It means practically speaking he is not using his spirit even though it is regenerated with divine life.To set the mind on the flesh is not to cause the regenerated spirit to actually become annhilated or non-exist. But practically speaking the one setting his mind on the flesh fills his living with spiritual death. That is true. And the unbeliever's entire being - spirit and soul and body perish there forever. His being there is not to pass out of existence or be annhilated though it is to be destroyed. So this would really be death in all manners of speaking. It would include spiritual death forever.It does not mean however, that the man "dies" in the sense of pass out of existence, be non-existence. This meaning is applied by Annhilationalists or Universalists. Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science also teaches annhilation into non-existence.I do not use spiritual death to mean the annhilation into non-existence of the human spirit. And John could not mean that the disciples of Christ who do not love abide in actual non-existence in any regard. Those born again will never perish forever. And it is a glory to God. However, a Christian may be "hurt" of the second death (Revelation 2:11) temporarily in some particular cases.And First John 3:14 is talking more about the flow of divine love as evidence of having passed out of death and into life. The brothers not practicing the divine love are abiding in death. They are not abiding in the lake of fire. They are abiding in a spiritual deadness which they ought to leave behind as they learn to set the mind on the regenerated human spirit.Please note that John 3:14 at least does not say "We know we have passed out of death into life because we have been born again." The emphasis here is not being born again but living practically in that new life. The evidence of such living is the flow of the divine love.Furthermore, the Christian may have passed out from under eternal condemantion yet practically be abiding in an immature backslidden spiritual death. That is why both John and Paul exhort us believers so.John does not use the concept of spiritual death to indicate the annhilation or non-existence of the human spirit.I welcome your comments.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No it does not.The flesh is alive but the psychological and spiritual heart is of stone, not alive.In this word picture -
Flesh = living.
Stone = NOT LIVING.In order to MATCH the living flesh God want to implant a CORRESPONDING "flesh" psychological and spiritual HEART to REPLACE the stone one.I do not interpret this as God doing a physical heart transplant surgery. I regard this as a SPIRITUAL and psychological allegory. In the word picture the natural spiritual and pyschological cannot cause the people to walk in God's ways. It is unresponsive, as stone and not spiritually alive to God.In order to get them to walk in God's ways truly, God must implant His Spirit into them. This promise to put His Spirit into them involves them receiving a new spirit and a new heart.That new heart will not be of stone - dead to God's will. It will be "of flesh" a metaphor for LIVING and vital. God's Spirit entering into man will implant a livingness and spiritual vitality in contrast to the spiritual death the people have from their natural birth. A heart of stone is indeed a non-pliable heart, a stubburn and hardened heart. And I will not split hairs with you.However, the Old Testament uses stone to convey death in 1 Samuel 25:37,38. To convey "death" the Old Testament used stone. So it is appropriate to understand a psychological and spiritual heart of stone to be a spiritually dead person.Having said that I would hasten to add that it does not mean a HOPELESS person. Even the person who realizes within themselves that there is this kind of "death" between them and God is entirely more hopefull than one who is totally unaware of his state.To sense spiritual death is infinitely better than to be oblivious for there is hope for repentence toward God.To be aware of the spiritual death within or aware of a hardened and unpliable heart towards God is a good thing if it leads to repentance and enlivening. I can define what I mean. It will not be exhaustive. And it will not be a total theological systemization of the whole bible. If it is not defined then how can you be so certain that it is not biblical.And where are your plain words in the OT that it does not exist ?As far as I am concerned you have no case to say that the phrase "spiritual death" is unbiblical. And I know too many expositors who would not take your contention seriously for a moment.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Perhaps you should speak just for yourself. That is interesting because to me you are the one who does not want to be serious about what is read in many places in the bible. I already submitted that. But spiritual death I am mostly refering to the damaged human spirit of man. Or I am refering to not living by the regenerated spirit of man.Man has been damaged by the fall of Adam. God created man "very good". That "very good" creation suffered damage at the sin of Adam.Man was invaded with some kind of foreign element. He was really "poisoned" and the human spirit was made comatose, deadened, spiritually deadened.This truth is more clearly developed in the New Testament in conjunction with the salvation of God being more developed ALSO in the New Testament.But I say the concept of spiritual death is not altogether absent from the OT. Your rejection of my examples, I regard as unwarranted.And it is equally perculiar to me that you are so cock sure that something not defined absolutely is unbiblical. In this post I gave you something to work with.
I anticipate your objections. And on a case by case basis I may deal with these expected objections. Why do you not also say that a definition is needed to support your insistence that "spiritual death" is unbiblical then ?Do you think this comes across as open minded or objective about the subject ? So I use the phrase "jump the gun". You're eager to announce something as unbiblical.I considered your title hype attraction grabbing - "Come argue with me Fundies."Aside from that, I gave examples that even without and exhaustive definition, spiritual death of a sort certainly can be understood as being conveyed in Ezekiel 36.You want a definition so you can go after inconsistencies. But I don't think total theological systemization of is possible on many subjects of the Bible. This complaint could be that you do not appreciate to what extent Christ is life and God is life. You have no contrast to compare experiencially to say that this behavior is really death spiritually.Could it be that you have not "pass out of death into life" therefore you do not take spiritual death seriously ?If immorality were the only manifestation of this death then I doubt that John would have included the case of Nicodemus, a "good" man by our standards. Regardless he needed to be born spiritually.The unruly and immoral sister Paul is speaking of may have been born again, but she is [not] living by that seed of life but by the old fallen nature. So he says she is dead while living.Spiritual death is implied because physically and psychologically she is alive.You think being born again means to simply turn over a new leaf, so to speak, don't you?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The Apostle Paul writes: This sounds like his quotation of either a poem or a song known to the Ephesian Christians to whom he writes. But what is the context of this exhortation to "arise from the dead"? It is a spiritual walk. Now observe the context of the quotation: In Paul's usage of this sentence "THE DEAD" is applied to those walking in the named sins and spiritual darkness."Spiritual death" is indicated in the exhortation - "Awake, sleeper, and arise from the dead ..." In contrast Jesus Christ is spiritual life to enlighten and enliven them.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

ICANT I'll have to think about some of these finer points. But I will comment a little as I go along.You are saying from John 3:18 that the condemned unbeliever "possesses" the second death even before being cast into the second death.In some sense I can see that. In some sense perhaps not. Let me see where you want to take it. I have not written that one must wait until being cast into such lake of fire to experience spiritual death. I have shown that such a spiritual death is spoken of in terms of unbelievers who are unregenerated and believers who are regenerated but live by setting their minds on the flesh and not the regenerated spirit.I think those cast into that eternal perdition must experience this "death" of not properly setting the mind forever. I would understand that as a perpetual spiritual death.It is started in the natural life outside of being cast into the lake of fire. It is continued after being so cast into that lake of fire. Okay. But you are speaking with me now. So I will respond to the points which refer to what I have said.I understand you here to be saying that to be cast into the second death, the lake of fire is to have the human spirit annhilated, pass out of existence. If that is what you mean I think I would not agree.The reason I would not agree will be stated. A full defense may not follow in this post.The CONSCIENCE of man is in the human spirit. And I think the Scripture indicates that the conscience of the loss continues to convict them.To prove this I think I would do two things:1.) Show how the human spirit in the Bible has a function which we would identify as those things which the human conscience does. I think I can do this.2.) Show how the conscience continues to bother the lost unbelievers even after they have been cast into the second death.I think I can do both of these. Should I? Do you think it is sufficiently related to our subject here? Think about this ICANT. This letter is written to a church. Now man may be sloppy or mistaken and include unbelievers in a "church". But Jesus Christ would not be sloppy or mistaken. He knows who is a part of His church and who is not. Do you agree?So, if Jesus is speaking to the church He is speaking to believers for whom the question of eternal redemption has already been settled. No non-believers are a part of the church in Smyrna.For all the seven churches a reward for overcoming is promised. This particular reward to the overcomers in the church in Smyrna is spoken of in somewhat negative terms -ie. "If you overcome I will NOT do something." This strongly implies that that there is the possibility that this negative something COULD happen if they do NOT overcome. "He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death."The reward is that something will NOT happen. Therefore that thing COULD happen. The converse of the promise reward is logical. He who does not overcome this particular trial will be hurt of the second death. I don't think anyone can get away from this logic.I use to think that the Lord Jesus was being too hard on the church in Smyrna. Then I realized that because He is so sufficient and so ABLE to sustain them, the promise is so strict. If He were not so faithful and so able to uphold them then it would be too strict and unfair.The overcomers had to overcome their particular assigned ten day trial. If they were faithful by Christ's all sufficient grace to overcome they would not be hurt of the second death.Since they are eternally redeemed, any "hurt" of the second death should be temporary and not eternal. And the Holy Spirit uses the word "hurt", I think, to indicate something short of perishing forever.I know that this is not the thought of many mainstream evangelical Christians. But we should realize that Jesus, as the Righteous Judge has a very large scope of lattitude with which to deal with His children. Just like a worldly Judge has a very wide range of things she may do to discipline someone, so Christ has a wide range of things He can do to perfect His believers.One of the mistakes we Christians make is to not realize how wide a range of possibilities could be used by Christ the Lord to deal with His people. This is not the milk or the word or even the meat of the word. This is the hard bones of the word of God.He who overcomes shall NOT be hurt by the second death. I submit to you that some Christians will be temporarily hurt by the second death after the second coming of Christ. Please indicate exactly which verse you are here refering to. Is the term "born again" used in that verse?ICANT, I think we have to be realistic. I know and probably you know Christians who have been born again, who carry grudges or resentments with them. They may not walk in love and may not repent though they are born again. They may carry those unloving attitudes with them to the grave.Sometimes you or I may not forgive a brother right away. Huh ?So I think it is a mistake to think that all Christians that are stuck in not loving the brothers are false Christians. Now some MAY be false brothers. But check your experience.Some genuine brothers may not be walking in the love. In 1:10 John says that if we say we have not sinned we lie.But if it is impossible for a Christian brother to not walk in love then the Apostle John would not exhort them to do so. The exhortation to love proves that the disciples could not be walking in that love.But show me the verse you mean saying he lies and is not "born again".ICANT, the condemnation spoken of in Romans 8:1 refers to the SELF CONDEMNATION elaborated on in the previous chapter 7: Chapter 7 of Romans elaborates Paul's self condemnation at not being able to carry out the good that he knows. In his members is another law driving him to commit the things which he hates and does not delight in his moral mind and in his agreement with the law of God. This failure to live as he ought to live causes him to feel wretched and self condemned.The self condemnation is broken by his discovery that he can walk by the Spirit in his regenerated spirit. A more powerful law of the Spirit of life sets him free from the law of sin and death. Therefore he feels gloriously free and no longer has self condemnation.The freedom from God condemnation through Justification by Faith has already been elaborated on in earlier chapters of the book. They should. But he exhorts them that they WOULD.The fact of the matter is that we NEED such exhortation because every born again Christian does NOT walk after the Spirit. Sometimes you and I do not walk after the Spirit. Am I right ?So we too need to be exhorted to walk thus. This is to be normal. And to overcome in Revelation 2 and 3 is also only to be normal. The promises to the overcomers is not promises to super spiritual people of some elite. They are promises of reward to the disciples to be NORMAL. They are not called to live ABOVE the standard. They are called to live AT the standard.It is normal that we should overcome. It is not typical that Christians do. What is normal is not average. Too many are adnormal. Sometime you and I are not normal in our enjoyment of Christ's grace. So the New Testament is filled with exhortations because it is not automatic that we overcome just because we are born again - justified from perdition. Can a Christian in the church in Smyrna be hurt of the second death ?Do unbelievers constitute a new testament church in any regard ?
I will continue latter.Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.

Good morning ICANT, I think I understand you to be saying that the phrase "spiritual death" can only mean the annhilation into non-existence of the human spirit.Therefore, you say, it follows that there is no such thing as "spiritual death". Therefore also those teachers whoever they may be who define the second death as "spiritual death" are in error.Is that what you are saying ? Is there, ICANT, such a thing as being "hurt by the second death" ?If your answer is yes, please tell me who in your opinion is in danger of experiencing such a "hurt of the second death"?I am interested mostly in evidence derived from chapters 2 or 3 of Revelation. Here I do concede that Revelation 20:6 may present a question mark to something I wrote. For years I have known that. However, the evidence for temporary dispensational discipline of Christians after the second coming of Christ is entirely too strong to me.In the spirit of seeking the truth as you yourself desire, I note your reference to Revelation 20:6. At the present time I think it seems a little problematic to my view but not devastating.Maybe I will demonstrate why Revelation 20:6 is not devasting to the belief that some disciples of Jesus, who are saved forever, may be burned or hurt by the second death.But this is possibly aside to the issue of "spiritual death". Do you want to discuss it in another thread ? At the present I would put it this way. I know all those who stand before the great white throne judgment whose names are not found written in the book of life ... will be cast into the lake of fire.But I get your main point. So ...? Hold on here.The church is the body of Christ. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. How can you say that Jesus has no control over who is a member of His own Body ?Secondly, the binding and loosing on earth and in heaven has little to do with who Jesus decides comes through Him to the Father for eternal life and union to His mystical Body.Thank God, that is not controled by man. Man may discipline a brother and ask him not to attend the church meeting as is the case of a fornicator in Corinth. Man cannot exclude man from believing in Christ to receive the Spirit of Christ unto salvation.Where do you get the concept that the saints can control who is a member of the church but Jesus the Head of "His Body, which is the church" (Eph. 1:22,23)[/b] cannot control who becomes a member ? Who do you think controls who is born again, someone OTHER than Jesus Christ ?Thank God, Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone controls who is born again. The regeneration of a man or woman's human spirit is not something left up to man. It is up to God. " .... glorify your Son that the Son may glorify You; Even as You have given Him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all whom You have given Him." (John 17:1,2)Who has been given authority over all flesh to give them eternal life ? Let's take the church in Corinth for an example. She represents a typical practical local church on earth. Paul said some of the saints there were more mature than others. He said that some saints were soulish, some were fleshly, and some were approved.Let us say that among some of the soulish or fleshly ones there were those who were hypocritical. Were they not members of the church in Corinth because of this?There are tares who are not wheat. They are hypocritical to the point of not being genuine Christians. I grant that. But we cannot say all immature or soulish brothers who are in some way hypocrits are not members of Christ's church because of this.Am I right ?Very interesting. But i have to leave right now.

ICANT,I suggest that I revive an old thread on "The Tree of Life as the Life of God" under Bible Study.We can continue there. I would rather emphaize the life of God anyway. I am kind of tired of talking about death. Further discussion about any "spiritual death" I prefer would be on that thread.See you there.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.