|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Spiritual Death is Not Biblical | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:In both cases the word translated as death, refers to physical death. The usage refers to physical death. quote:Actually God hardened Pharaoh's "conscience". I disagree that spiritual death is an appropriate description in this story. God orchestrated the whole scenario to show his power. Pharaoh wanted the plague stopped. It would have been death to him and his people. quote:Deuteronomy 30:19 uses the words death and life creatively. They follow God's commands and all will go well with them, if they don't their lives will be difficult. I disagree that it implies spiritual death. You see spiritual death because of a later doctrine that developed hundreds of years later. Spiritual death is a later concept. quote:Not really. You're using the word deadness creatively. The law comforts him or gives him hope in adverse circumstances. The song doesn't say he lost faith. quote:You're saying because God is spiritual, that any "death" coming from God is spiritual death? The concept of spiritual death did not come from the OT. The concept developed after the NT based on Paul's writings. You're taking that later concept and projecting it back into the OT on anything that speaks of death, or judgment. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Interesting that you wouldn't allow for God to be merciful. See Message 29. Read the story without the future baggage. quote:Again, read the story without future baggage. The simple reading does not speak of blood sacrifice for sins. You're looking at the text as it has been used for sermons. Neither Christianity or Judaism presents the idea that the spirit can die. In ancient Judaism the body and spirit weren't considered separate or monism. Even after death the spirit continued. See Message 38. Christianity followed the dualism of the Greek Philosophers.
Body and Soul: Comparative Studies in Biblical Judaism, Greek Philosophy and Medieval Christianity In contrast with the monism of man in Judaism is the dualism in some Greek philosophers. One of the characteristics of the dualism of man is to consider human soul is in essence different from body, the former is entirely spiritual or intellectual substance and the latter is the temporary house or grave. Paul's teachings are very clearly based on the dualism of body and soul. The body is sinful, but the soul is holy. I feel his creative writing style has lent itself to the development of the doctrine of spiritual death.
To sum up, In the Hebrew Scripture, the world is described as a whole, too. To divide spirit and matter or mind and body and to explore the first principle in the light of the division is the patent of the ancient Greeks. Show me the text that leads one to believe the spirit of a live person can actually die, not verses that creatively describe depression or bad moods. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So the concept of spiritual death is a later development. quote:The text doesn't support your contention at all. The writer was not speaking of any sort of spiritual death. I see nothing that links judgments in the OT with spiritual death. You haven't shown that the spirit can die separately from the living body. quote:You're equating spiritual death with immorality. In the OT the body and soul/spirit are one. An immoral person still has a spirit. Their spirit is not dead. quote:God is going to give them a new attitude. The plain reading is not difficult to understand. From the verses you've shared you really don't have clear support for the spiritual death concept. You're equating depression, judgment, immorality, weakness, anxiety, and bad attitude with spiritual death. Unfortunately the poetic and creative styles of writing in the OT and NT lend themselves to creative manipulation. I don't see support that the spirit in a living person can die. Even the NT doesn't support that the spirit in a living person can die. The phrase seems to be a creation to cover anything outside the norm of the belief system using the phrase. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:What is the definition of spiritual? Reading the plain meaning of the text is not "dumbing it down". It's looking at the foundation. One meaning of spiritual today is being concerned with religious values. Since the Bible is a religious book, there is no way to "de-spiritualize" it. To avoid falling for false doctrines or being conned into a cult, one needs to be able to go back to the foundation, which is the point of p'shat. Message 194 The p'shat is the keystone of Scripture understanding. If we discard the p'shat we lose any real chance of an accurate understanding and we are no longer objectively deriving meaning from the Scriptures (exegesis), but subjectively reading meaning into the scriptures (eisogesis). quote: So far, none of my opponents have provided the meaning of spiritual in the phrase spiritual death. Some have used death to mean separation. You have equated the whole phrase with judgment. The way spiritual is being used by you and others, the meaning seems to be referring to religious values and not the actual human soul/spirit. After reading your response to ICANT, I see that your usage of spiritual also seems to be referring to religious thoughts. If I'm wrong, please provide the definition of spiritual as you are using it.
Jaywill writes: From Message 207 For example - God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul. That is a dichotomy. Also the spirit of man being formed within him in Zechariah 12:1 I think shows a dichotomy. Unfortunately, we have a habit of looking at the OT through a dualistic lens.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed (naphach)into his nostrils the breath (neshamah) of life and man became a living soul (nephesh). Ruach (spirit) isn't used here. What's the dichotomy?
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, I don't see the dichotomy here either. He's describing God as the creator by listing what he did. We know from the Genesis story that God put the breath of life in man. Just as I wouldn't assume the writer meant God is continually laying the foundation of the earth; I wouldn't assume that God is continually blowing into the nostrils of all men. What do you think spirit means here?
Jaywill writes: From Message 205 In the post which you replied to I refered to Ezek 11:19 and Ezek 36:26. Is "spiritual death" mentioned specifcally ? No. Look though what you have: The rebellious Israelites have a "heart of stone". God says it needs to be replaced with a "heart of flesh". In conjunction with this replacement is "a new spirit". I don't think you can ignore that sprituality is being spoken of here. And a heart of stone is a word picture for a non-living or spritually deadened heart. A heart of flesh, the new heart and new spirit is one a living spirituality towards God. Any teaching I've heard or commentary I've read depicts the stone as symbolizing hardness and therefore not impressible. I understand why you are saying what you are concerning spiritual death if you view spiritual to mean religious values or concerns; but we can't project that back to replace the use of the words translated as spirit and death in the OT. So in the phrase spiritual death, spiritual really has nothing to do with the spirit (animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms) and death has nothing to do with physically dying. So far the phrase is being used to describe those who are not following God's will. I can understand that application, but again even that application does not change the usage of the words translated as spirit and death in the OT. If I have the definition right, then the phrase is only supported scripturally in the sense that people are described as not following God's will in the OT. An ambiguous phrase for a continuing problem. So in Genesis 2:17 (still assuming I have the definition right) for the sake of a lesson one could say that Adam and Eve's disobedience is an example of "spiritual death"; but we can't say that the word translated as die refers to spiritual death. The text doesn't support it. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: PurpleDawn writes: Message 1In various discussions, the concept of spiritual death rises to help explain inconsistencies between Bible authors. Message 10I then gave two examples of where the "spiritual death" idea has been used to help smooth textual inconsistencies between authors. quote:When it is used to give a new meaning to the words translated as death or spirit, then we can determine if that use is accurate or not. At face value the idea of the phrase is not biblical. In Monism, the spirit (an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms) cannot die apart from the body. The OT does not support the idea of the spirit (an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms) dying separate from the body. So far there doesn't seem to be a clear consistent meaning to the phrase. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I'm not really making a big deal, but the discussion is useless if I'm looking at the plain text and someone else is presenting bits and pieces to make a meaning different than the plain text. Barring translation differences, the plain or simple reading is the closest thing to common ground for a discussion.
quote:It doesn't matter. The text says what it says no matter what I believe. quote:The story doesn't provide that information. quote:I disagree. I've addressed this a few times in this thread. Mercy is the other option. Message 29 quote:I agree the verse refers to a physical death. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:God said that they must not eat from the tree of knowledge because when they ate of it they would die. This would suggest that the tree is poisonous. The serpent then tells Eve that they would not die if they ate from the tree, suggesting it was not poisonous. Eve ate and it wasn't poisonous. If God was implying that the tree was poisonous, then God lied about the safety of the tree. If God is saying he would kill them as soon as they ate from the tree, then God showed mercy by not killing them on the spot. For those who read it this way, mercy is an option. IMO, the first scenario is probably closer to what the original audience would have understood.
quote:They lost access to the tree of life because they gained knowledge. They gained knowledge because they disobeyed and ate the fruit. Due to their disobedience, they lost access to immortality. quote:That view falls under the second scenario I described above. As EMA and I went around and around on earlier in this thread, the story doesn't tell us that A&E were immortal before eating from the forbidden tree, and it doesn't tell us that A&E knew about the tree of life. I think we assume they did since we do, but it is the narrator that tells us about the tree of life. No where in the story does it divulge that A&E actually knew about the tree of life. As I showed in Message 29, the word used for die represents a premature death, not a natural death. God doesn't tell A&E they lost access to the tree of life as part of their punishment. God is talking to others when he says, "the man has now become like one of us". The reader knows they lost access, but the story isn't clear that A&E knew. If they didn't know about the tree of life, then natural death as punishment wouldn't be a threat. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Paul's writing style is long and involved. He sets the stage and then makes his point. For this verse his point is explained starting with verse 11. It has become very clear in this thread that the phrase "spiritual death" is an ambiguous phrase used by apologetics. It has nothing to do with the human spirit (an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms or life) or with death (a permanent cessation of all vital functions). IMO, the phrase may have started with Augustine of Hippo in his defense of Original Sin against Pelagius. Augustine vs. Pelagius When Adam failed to obey God and partook of that tree, along with his wife Eve; he disobeyed God and thus failed the test. As a result Adam died spiritually, that is, his nature was corrupted by sin. Whereas before, his nature was holy and desired God, now his nature was corrupted by sin and enslaved to sin. Nature in this usage means disposition.
2 a : prevailing tendency, mood, or inclination b : temperamental makeup c : the tendency of something to act in a certain manner under given circumstances Which matches up with this current meaning of spirit.
5 a : the activating or essential principle influencing a person b : an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood 6 a : a special attitude or frame of mind The usage of the phrase has now come to mean separation from God, which is the state one is supposedly in when one sins. Overall it's another name for sinning. Since the phrase has nothing to do with death, the words translated as death in the OT, cannot automatically be said to be speaking of something other than physical death. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Maybe if you stop using the word dead, when you aren't really talking about physical death we can understand what you're really talking about. I know there are many creative ways to use the words death, die, died, etc. In the OT, the verses shared were actually referring to physical death, IIRC. If one is attempting to show that these words have been used figuratively, then one needs to explain the usage without using the word in the same way. So stop using the word dead figuratively and actually say what you're talking about.
quote:So you really don't have a clear definition. quote:You're still just referring to those who aren't following God's will. You need to tell me what spirit is referring to in your question. I have no context to know what you mean by spirit. quote:Paul is still talking about right and wrong behavior. Those hostile to God will not follow his commands and therefore sin and cannot please God. Those not hostile to God will live in accordance with his will and will follow his commands and therefore will please God. This reflects Plato's belief that flesh is bad and spirit is good.
A Platonic Christian Paradigm Flesh is Corrupt, Spirit is Good Because God and the Spirit world is where all good comes from, then spiritual things are the only things that are good. This also means that the physical universe we live in is automatically crippled, automatically prone toward weakness. This weakness is called by the platonic Christians the flesh. The flesh is corruptible, able to drift further and further from the Spirit, which is pure good. Fundamentally, the more physicalthe fleshthe more corruption and evil. The more Spirit, the more purity and good. The soul determines the moral direction of the person.
Humanity is part spirit, part flesh Every human born, according to the platonic Christian philosophers, is part spirit and part flesh. The flesh, they say, is the body, which is corruptible and imperfect. But every human also has a spirit, which is the human’s connection to God. Between the flesh and the spirit is the soul, which is the basis of the mind and will. The soul is the fundamental part of humanityneither pure flesh nor pure spiritwhich determines the moral direction of the person, whether toward the spirit or toward the flesh. So a soul that is hostile to God will not follow his commands. A soul that isn't hostile to God and leans toward the spirit, will follow God's commands.
quote:I said the word nature in this usage means disposition. It wasn't a blanket definition of the word nature or spirit. I was showing that that is what Augustine was referring to in his statement, which seems to be where the spiritual death phrase came from. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: quote:If you are unable to restate in non-figurative language what is stated in figurative language, there is no way for a reader to understand how you understand the figurative language. quote:Statements like this tell me you either don't really understand figurative language or you don't want to discuss Paul seriously. quote:The phrase spiritual death is not in the Bible. You have yet to define what spiritual in the phrase is referring to. Augustine seems to be referring to disposition when referring to the nature of man. No, that doesn't mean that every use of the word spirit refers to disposition. quote:A definition is needed to support your position that I've jumped the gun. quote:"Dead while living" is figurative language. Your explanation of the verse shows that "dead" refers to immorality or wrong behavior, which is what I've said before concerning Paul's figurative use of the word dead or death. Since you have no definition for spiritual death, how can you say that the words translated as dead or die refer to spiritual death? In Paul's letters, the word pneumatikos is translated as spiritual. So Paul did have a word to use if he meant spiritual.
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul 2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God 3) belonging to the Divine Spirita) of God the Holy Spirit b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God 4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing The concept of the rational soul is a Greek concept that is not in the OT.
Body and Soul: Comparative Studies in Biblical Judaism, Greek Philosophy and Medieval Christianity Following Plato, Aristotle also divided soul into three parts, i.e. the soul of plant, the soul of animal and the soul of reason. He believed that although all of the three parts could be found in human soul, the essence of man is his rational soul. Even though your usage of the phrase depicts those whose disposition is immoral, you disagree that the phrase has that meaning. Without a definition as common ground, our discussion won't progress.
quote:I find it fascinating that looking at the simple reading of the Bible writings is considered as not receiving the Bible's utterances, when what I'm actually battling is post Biblical teachings; not what the Bible says. quote:Do you remember that my contention deals with the OT/Jewish Bible? I've already shown that the NT was influenced by the Greek Philosophers. quote:I think this is your own concoction. From your usage, you consider spirit (pneuma) in the NT to refer to the rational soul or mental disposition. Now explain why the words translated as death/dead/die in the OT or the NT (figurative or not) now reflects spiritual death (sinful nature or wrong disposition) as opposed to actual wrong behavior? Need a definition of spiritual death, otherwise we go in circles. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I agree the emotional impact of the phrase is probably more the point than any actual meaning to the phrase. The phrase is ambiguous enough to attach it to many different issues as we've seen in this thread. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Unfortunately for your explanation, a non-living heart means the person is physically dead. The figurative use of stone isn't depicting a physically dead person. The other problem is that we've already found that the word death in the phrase spiritual death has nothing to do with the straight meaning of the word death. So equating the meaning of stone with non-living doesn't equate the verse with spiritual death. The contrast of stone and flesh deals with pliability and this isn't just my take on the verse. Any teaching I've heard or commentary I've read depicts the stone as symbolizing hardness and therefore not impressible. Until you come up with a concrete definition, your reasoning for this verse doesn't fly with what we've discovered about the definition so far. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Again, you're going to have to stop using figurative language in your explanations. You obviously aren't talking about the physical heart that pumps blood. You also aren't using the word living as the blood pumping, breathing body or non-living to mean the opposite. Heart in the OT usually referred to the mind. So I agree the writer is referring to the mind. Flesh = pliable or compliant and stone = not pliable or stubborn. Life and death aren't part of the verse.
quote:Are you talking about three different things here: natural, spiritual, and psychological? Today, psychological = mind and rational soul (spiritual) = mind. quote:Now you're making up words. Spiritual death from natural birth is a later concept. Probably Augustine again. The born sinful concept wasn't in the OT. I don't recall it being in the NT either. Yes, the verse says God will make their mind pliable so that when he gives them a new disposition, they will not fight the change. No figurative life or death is mentioned in this verse. Are you saying spiritual death is stubbornness?
quote:Actually the word died conveyed death, the word stone just conveyed that he was motionless like a stone. I'm sure some writer can use the word stone figuratively to mean death, but it didn't in the Ezekiel verse or the verse in Samuel. How one writer uses a word figuratively doesn't automatically impact how another writer uses the word. It depends on the use in the sentence. In these two cases the use of the word stone is playing off the properties of a stone: rigid, motionless, unyielding, etc.
quote:You really can't explain this without using the figurative language? quote:Well you haven't clearly stated what "it" is yet. The phrase exists, but it is a post biblical creation. My guess is still with Augustine. He used the phrase in defense of original sin to describe man's nature corrupted by sin.
Augustine vs. Pelagius When Adam failed to obey God and partook of that tree, along with his wife Eve; he disobeyed God and thus failed the test. As a result Adam died spiritually, that is, his nature was corrupted by sin. Whereas before, his nature was holy and desired God, now his nature was corrupted by sin and enslaved to sin. The doctrine of original sin is a later concept and not supported by the OT.
The doctrine of original sin was first developed in second-century Bishop of Lyon Irenaeus's struggle against Gnosticism.[2] The Greek Fathers emphasized the cosmic dimension of the Fall, namely that since Adam human beings are born into a fallen world, but held fast to belief that man, though fallen, is free.[2] It was in the West that precise definition of the doctrine arose.[2] Augustine of Hippo taught that original sin was physically transmitted from parent to child through the concupiscence (roughly, lust) that accompanied sexual reproduction, weakening the will and making humanity a massa damnata[2] (mass of perdition, condemned crowd). In Augustine's view (termed "Realism"), all of humanity was really present in Adam when he sinned, and therefore all have sinned. Original sin, according to Augustine, consists of the guilt of Adam which all humans inherit. As sinners, humans are utterly depraved in nature, lack the freedom to do good, and cannot respond to the will of God without divine grace. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The quote is humor and not part of the discussion. Just as the title and subtitle are not the discussion or argument. It's all those words in between that make up the argument/discussion. quote:Fascinating that you think I alone determine what Paul means. This may come as a surprise to you, but there are many Christian articles dealing with Paul's writings and the personifications he uses. There are also books. I read a lot and I read fast. When I use insights from others, I usually provide links. PaRDeS Note that within the p'shat you can find several types of language, including figurative, symbolic and allegorical. The following generic guidelines can be used to determine if a passage is figurative and therefore figurative even in its p'shat: 1. When an inanimate object is used to describe a living being, the statement is figurative. Example: Isaiah 5:7 - For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant; and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. 2. When life and action are attributed to an inanimate object the statement is figurative. Example: Zechariah 5:1-3 - Then I turned, and lifted up my eyes, and looked, and behold a flying scroll. And he said to me, What do you see? And I answered, I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits, and its width ten cubits. And he said to me, This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth; for everyone who steals shall be cut off henceforth, according to it; and everyone who swears falsely shall be cut off henceforth, according to it. 3. When an expression is out of character with the thing described, the statement is figurative. Example: Psalm 17:8 - Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of your wings ...
If you feel that Paul is using the word to mean physical death, then make your case as it pertains to the topic, but this isn't a discussion about Paul's technique.
quote: I gave support for my position in Message 149 from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. I didn't invent the idea.
Death 1. Conception of Sin and Death: According to Gen 2:17, God gave to man, created in His own image, the command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and added thereto the warning, "in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." Though not exclusively, reference is certainly made here in the first place to bodily death. Yet because death by no means came upon Adam and Eve on the day of their transgression, but took place hundreds of years later, the expression, "in the day that," must be conceived in a wider sense, or the delay of death must be attributed to the entering-in of mercy (Gen 3:15). Just as when we read any other book, certain things are understood without being specifically stated. Mercy can be understood by the action in the story. Spiritual death cannot be understood from the simple reading without applying the post-Biblical concepts of original sin and spiritual death. How would the original audience or a child hearing the story for the first time, understand those concepts? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:What do you mean by spirit? quote:I'm taking the phrase at face value, mainly because people keep attaching it to the words or situations dealing with death. At face value the idea of the phrase is not biblical. In Monism, the spirit (an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms) cannot die apart from the body. The OT does not support the idea of the spirit (an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms) dying separate from the body. (Message 19, Message 212) My contention was and still is that the Old Testament prophets and writers of the Torah (first five books) in the Jewish Bible do not present a concept of spiritual death. I feel that the spiritual death concept is a later concept influenced by Greek philosophers. We have discovered that the doctrine of spiritual death is a post-Biblical creation, most likely by Augustine and influenced by Greek views on the division of body and soul. Even Augustine's use of the word refers to the corrupted human nature due to original sin and not the actual meaning of the word death. The NT shows the influence of the Greek rational soul. Please explain how the words translated as death/dead/die in the OT now mean spiritual death (sinful nature or wrong disposition) as opposed to physical death or actual wrong behavior despite what the author wrote? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024