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Author Topic:   Divinity of Jesus
Peg
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 511 of 517 (535335)
11-14-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by jaywill
11-07-2009 8:27 AM


Re: God was the Word
Jaywill writes:

My God is the man Jesus.

ok Jaywill, thats fair enough. Jesus did give his life for mankind and he is the one who will eventually bring all things back into harmony with God again.

But tell me this, When Jesus relinquishes his rulership of the Kingdom of God, and puts mankind back in the hands of his God...will you then accept the God whom Jesus humbly subjects himself to?

quote:
1Corinthians 13:24 "Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27For [God] subjected all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

The reconcilliation of man to God is because of Jesus, however the purpose is not for mankind to be worshipers of Jesus...its to reconcile mankind back to God Almighty Jehovah.

What is your opinion with regard to this reconcilliation that Paul explains in the above scripture?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2009 8:27 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by jaywill, posted 11-16-2009 6:58 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 513 by jaywill, posted 11-16-2009 8:52 AM Peg has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 512 of 517 (535464)
11-16-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Peg
11-14-2009 9:20 PM


Re: God was the Word
ok Jaywill, thats fair enough. Jesus did give his life for mankind and he is the one who will eventually bring all things back into harmony with God again.

Jesus not only gave Himself to redeem His people. He also gave Himself TO His people as the indwelling divine seed of God.

"Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:9)

Jesus has caused the non-sinning divine seed of the life of God into those whom He has redeemed. The essence of the element of God as seed is implanted into the human spirit of the one begotten of God - born of God.

Have you ever prayed "Lord Jesus, I want the divine seed of God to be planted into me." God does not sin. And this seed of God has nothing to do with sinning. If we allow this seed of God to be planted into us and grow in us, in this way we will be saved from our sins, not only from their guilt but from the power of sin.

Again, Jesus not only dies for the sins of mankind. Jesus brings God into His believers:

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

Jehovah God embodied as Jesus Christ has come into me. Part of me is God. Part of my being is Jehovah God because my spirit has been made one spirit with the Spirit of the Lord - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

I already tried to show you that the Spirit of God in Romans 8:9 is the Spirit of Christ in the same passage. And that this Spirit of God, ie. Spirit of Christ is also Christ HIMSSELF.

"But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ..." (See Romans 8:9-10)

Now I am called away. But I will continue and try to show you that I think your concept of Christ relinquishing the kingdom is not what what First Corinthians 15 is teaching. I do not think your concept of a dethronement of Jesus Christ after the millennium has anything to do with First Corinthians 15.

As a matter of fact there is little there in Christ's humbling Himself under the Father which He has not or is not in such a state already.

I will cont.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Peg, posted 11-14-2009 9:20 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 513 of 517 (535482)
11-16-2009 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by Peg
11-14-2009 9:20 PM


Re: God was the Word
But tell me this, When Jesus relinquishes his rulership of the Kingdom of God, and puts mankind back in the hands of his God...will you then accept the God whom Jesus humbly subjects himself to?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Corinthians 13:24 "Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] subjected all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reconcilliation of man to God is because of Jesus, however the purpose is not for mankind to be worshipers of Jesus...its to reconcile mankind back to God Almighty Jehovah.

Does Jesus relinquish His rulership ? I do not think 1 Cor.15:13 says that Jesus relinquishes His kingship.

Jesus can be subject to the Father without relinquishing His kingahip. Is Jesus not subject to the Father while being Lord during the thirty three and a half years of His earthly ministry ? Did He have to "relinquish" being Lord because He was at that time subject to His Father ?

The interpretation you hold is that Jesus uncrowns Himself as King of kings because He is to be subject to the Father. I see no ground for subjection to the Father calling for this.

Hebrews 1:8 says - "But of the Son, Your throne of God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom."

1.) This word is spoken to "the Son" , Jesus Christ the Son of God.

2.) The THRONE of the Son of God is "forever and ever". It is not terminated after the millennial kingdom. Rather His throne is unto eternity.

3.) His KINGDOM is therefore also unto eternity.

It also seems not to occur to you that delivering up the kingdom to His Father is not giving AWAY the kingdom to His Father. Nor does is imply the Father TAKING AWAY the kingdom from the Son.

Did it ever occur to you that it may be the Father's good pleasure that once the kingdom is delivered up to the Father the Father continue to install the Son's throne forever and ever ?

In the Trinity each works on behalf of the other in perfect coordination. The Father invests all into the hands of the Son. The Spirit communicates all from the Son to the believers. The Spirit works not for His own glory but the glory of the Son. The Son likewise works for the glory of the Father. And the Father works all for the exultation of the Son.

There is no competition. There is no rivalry. So First Corinthains 15:24-28 does not mean the termination of the Son's "kingdom" which is forever and ever.

Here is a footnote in the Recovery Version on verse 28:

Christ, the Son of God, as the head of mankind in His humanity, is under the headship of God the Father (11:3). This is for the government of God's kingdom. After God the Father has subjected all things under the feet of Christ as a resurrected man in glory (Eph. 1:22; Heb. 2:7-8), and after Christ as such a resurrected man has put all enemies under His feet to execute God the Father's subjection of all things to Him, He as the Son of God, along with His delivering of the kingdom back to God the Father (v.24), will also subject Himself in His divinity to God, who has subjectied all things to Him, the Son in His humanity. This indicates the Son's absolute subjection and subordination to the Father, which exalts the Father that God teh Father may be all in all."

While the passage is not an easy one for me to grasp without help, I see nothing in it indicating a termination of the Son of God's kingdom which the Father has established forever and ever (Hebrews 1:8).

Did it occur to you that the Father is exalted in the Son's being commissioned and anointed to reign forever and ever?

I have more to say on this passage in another post.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Peg, posted 11-14-2009 9:20 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Peg, posted 11-17-2009 2:33 AM jaywill has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 514 of 517 (535623)
11-17-2009 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by jaywill
11-16-2009 8:52 AM


Re: God was the Word
jaywill writes:

The interpretation you hold is that Jesus uncrowns Himself as King of kings because He is to be subject to the Father. I see no ground for subjection to the Father calling for this.

the purpose according to Paul, is to 'hand over the kingdom to his father....so God may be all things to all persons'

God is the supreme authority, always has been and always will. Jesus recognizes his authority as Supreme Ruler which is why Jesus 'hands back' the kingdom.

jaywill writes:

2.) The THRONE of the Son of God is "forever and ever". It is not terminated after the millennial kingdom. Rather His throne is unto eternity.

there is no reason why Jesus cannot have his own throne...in fact God crowns him with such a thrown when he grants him 'immortality' which is why the scriptures say that Jesus is king forever.

But with regard to mankind, it is to Jehovah God who rightfully is their ruler. Jesus does not need to be the Supreme ruler over mankind forever.

Your Recovery Version footnote explains it exactly as I have stated above:

He as the Son of God, along with His delivering of the kingdom back to God the Father (v.24), will also subject Himself in His divinity to God. This indicates the Son's absolute subjection and subordination to the Father, which exalts the Father that God teh Father may be all in all.

If the purpose of the kingdom is for God to be in all, then right now God is not in all... that wont happen until Jesus Kingdom is handed back to God.

So my question stands.... when that happens, will you then turn your devotion to Jehovah and worship him rather then Jesus?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by jaywill, posted 11-16-2009 8:52 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-17-2009 1:30 PM Peg has responded
 Message 516 by jaywill, posted 11-19-2009 4:32 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5692
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 515 of 517 (535713)
11-17-2009 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Peg
11-17-2009 2:33 AM


Re: God was the Word
The more I read about your beliefs, the more I get the feeling that you are Watchtower. Are you a JW?


"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams
This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Peg, posted 11-17-2009 2:33 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 6:24 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 516 of 517 (536067)
11-19-2009 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by Peg
11-17-2009 2:33 AM


Re: God was the Word
the purpose according to Paul, is to 'hand over the kingdom to his father....so God may be all things to all persons'

G.H. Lang writes as follows -

"The Greek verb used paradidomi can certainly be sometimes translated "deliver up" (as in Matt. 10:17, 19, 21, etc. ...); but it does not necessarily have the force of handing over somethng to the extent that the bestower loses possession. Thus the master of the house going from home "delivered unto his servants his goods," but he did not lose ownership or right of control (Matt. 25:14,20,22). Similarly, "the faith was once for all delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3), but the Lord who imparted to them that knowledge did not surrender possession of it. In this same epistle (1 Cor.) the word is found in six other places (5,5; 11.2, 23 twice; 13.3; 15.3). This last place is in the same chapter that is before us, where Paul says "I delivered unto you that which I also received." It is clear that the Lord did not give up possession by handing the truth to Paul, nor he by passing it on to others."

[The Last Assize, G.H. Lang, Conley & Schoette, pg.57]


jaywill writes:
2.) The THRONE of the Son of God is "forever and ever". It is not terminated after the millennial kingdom. Rather His throne is unto eternity.

there is no reason why Jesus cannot have his own throne...in fact God crowns him with such a thrown when he grants him 'immortality' which is why the scriptures say that Jesus is king forever.

In the picture of the eternal reign in the new heaven and new earth there is one throne which is called "the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Rev. 22:1). It did not say the thrones (plural) of God and the Lamb. Rather the Lamb, the Redeeming God-man is on the throne of God.


But with regard to mankind, it is to Jehovah God who rightfully is their ruler. Jesus does not need to be the Supreme ruler over mankind forever.

Your Recovery Version footnote explains it exactly as I have stated above:

He as the Son of God, along with His delivering of the kingdom back to God the Father (v.24), will also subject Himself in His divinity to God. This indicates the Son's absolute subjection and subordination to the Father, which exalts the Father that God the Father may be all in all.

Has not the Son always been in absolute subjection and subordination to the Father? So I don't see this as necessarily a new state of affairs.

Was the Son not in subjection to the Father in crucifixion and in resurrection ?

And it doesn't occur to you that for God to be all and all could be for the Son to reign forever and ever on the one throne of God and of the Lamb (Rev. 21:1).


If the purpose of the kingdom is for God to be in all, then right now God is not in all... that wont happen until Jesus Kingdom is handed back to God.

G.H. Lang informed us that the Greek word does not have to carry the force of losing possession of that which is delivered.


So my question stands.... when that happens, will you then turn your devotion to Jehovah and worship him rather then Jesus?

Since the moment I met Jesus my devotion has been on Jehovah.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Peg, posted 11-17-2009 2:33 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 517 of 517 (536080)
11-19-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Hyroglyphx
11-17-2009 1:30 PM


Re: God was the Word
certainly am.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-17-2009 1:30 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
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