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Author Topic:   Baby Denied Health Care Coverage For Being "Too Fat"
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 166 of 184 (536749)
11-24-2009 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by onifre
11-24-2009 8:05 PM


Re: Chomsky writes:
That IS an interesting argument. I think I have a decent rebuttal but it will have to wait until tomorrow. I think his main flaw is saying that there is a right-wing populist uprising. That is taking the media portrayal hook line and sinker. There is no actual beast that is a right-wing populist uprising. I'll say more tomorrow.
He is right that we need to be organizing labor though. Dead on right.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by onifre, posted 11-24-2009 8:05 PM onifre has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 167 of 184 (537726)
11-30-2009 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by onifre
11-24-2009 8:05 PM


Re: Chomsky writes:
I promised a better reply and I was going to be ambitious and dig out some polling data from the August fiasco but I'll just make the point because I don't think it is all that controversial.
I mentioned in my brief reply that I think Chomsky goes wrong in even making the claim that there IS a right-wing populist uprising. The fact is that what we saw then and since then was staged outrage abusing the people who already were freaked out, usually for reasons other than economic issues which is the key point that Chomsky is trying to emphasize. How are you then going to organize those people, who's feigned and corporate sponsored "populism" doesn't even have anything to do with labor or economic dispair?
Chomsky is correct in theory though. There is a ton of apprehension over concerns that are conductive to organizing which is exactly what Obama tapped into in order to win. Unfortunatly he is loosing that now which is sad but I think there IS a vaccume where someone can take charge. I am thinking more and more that such a thing needs to happen on a state by state basis starting with municiple election reform.
So that just leave what to do with the crazies. I see only 2 options, ignore them or ridicule them. If you ignore them you conceed power to them since the media and congress didn't make that choice. Since they did, the only thing we can really do is expose them for the crazy that they are to counter their effect. This is the short game so we can get the best reform we can right now, for the long game I am 100% behind what Chomsky is saying and eventually it will come out of necessity and not just will.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by onifre, posted 11-24-2009 8:05 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 168 of 184 (538768)
12-09-2009 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Jazzns
11-30-2009 3:32 PM


Re: Chomsky writes:
I mentioned in my brief reply that I think Chomsky goes wrong in even making the claim that there IS a right-wing populist uprising.
Here's Chomsky verbaly explaining it a bit better, in my opinion.
He's basically talking about the general concern of the republican/right-wing. Remember, its Chomsky, so you might need to consider what he considers the "right-wing".
Basically, he's refering to republicans. So lets say there isn't an up-rising, which he doesn't mention that in this explanation, lets just say republican, right-wing views. I'd say the country is about 50-50 right-wing vs left-wing, so he's refering to the opinons of those on the right.
Now, he says these people on the right are seeking answers, and they go to guys like Beck, Limbaugh, etc., for the answers. But they seek answers to real questions that all of us are asking, so its important to consider the effect of these "crazies" since people are listening.
So that just leave what to do with the crazies. I see only 2 options, ignore them or ridicule them. If you ignore them you conceed power to them since the media and congress didn't make that choice. Since they did, the only thing we can really do is expose them for the crazy that they are to counter their effect.
I think you gotta fight them with truth, and that's the one thing that neither side is willing to do.
Case in point, Obama and his surge of 30,000 more troops. The other side, what you may consider the correct side, is not being truthful to the people. It is plain to see that lies are coming from both sides. Therefore to call the others "crazies" and ridcule them, while not doing anything to answer the questions, is just going to lead people back to the crazies for answers.
Or, they can spend less time ridiculing the crazies, so it doesn't look like a pissing match between John Stewart and Glenn Beck, and more time telling the truth to the American public. But this is the game our American politics plays, and the media is at the helm.
This is the short game so we can get the best reform we can right now, for the long game I am 100% behind what Chomsky is saying and eventually it will come out of necessity and not just will.
Agreed. I'd like to see a swing toward making it an actual long term plan though, instead of it just being a "vision" for the future right now.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Jazzns, posted 11-30-2009 3:32 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 169 of 184 (538809)
12-10-2009 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Hyroglyphx
10-20-2009 9:58 AM


Re: CATO
When you have government run institutions for art work like the National Endowment for Arts, it is no wonder why the United States is this in debt.
That would be hilariously funny if it wasn't so dam stupid. The United States is not in debt because it funds art. Were you drunk when you wrote this?
The fact is, as a society, we have decided that we want to have a country which has value for living in-which includes nice roads, good hospitals, good schools, scientific research, culture, and entertainment. You have taken this simplistic stance that paying for those things causes money to just disappear into thin air-and thus this great debt is created that causes this burden for the entire society. Not only is that short sighted thinking, it is economic hogwash. Governments spend money, and in turn they create jobs, they circulate money throughout the society and they create worth. Perhaps the only thing that causes our nation to incur debt as a result of spending, is when we wage war, and engage in other international escapes like in the middle east, where our money is handed out to Iraqi and Afghan warlords.
The main thing that destroys a country's economy and causes ruin, is when too much money is allowed to get into the hands of too few people. This is precisely what your vaunted "free market" actually achieves. Do we need free enterprise, sure. But the constraints, or lack thereof, that "free marketers" like you and the repugnant Phage0070 wish to operate under would be the worst recipe possible for a society that anyone would want to live in. No one would concern themselves with the long term goals of a company or society, instead they would simply make as much profit as quickly as possible, at the expensive of quality, at the expense of social responsibility, at the expense of employing as few people as possible, at the expense of transparency, at the expense of the country's future stability. If I can make more than my neighbor, in whatever legal means necessary, than that is nirvana.
Well, that may be nirvana for you, but it is not nirvana for a country. I suggest if that is your goal, go move to a small island and make as much money as you can all by yourself, because your ideals don't work at all with the concept of a community and a country.
Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-20-2009 9:58 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-10-2009 10:18 AM Bolder-dash has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 184 (538813)
12-10-2009 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 9:02 AM


Re: CATO
That would be hilariously funny if it wasn't so dam stupid. The United States is not in debt because it funds art.
I was giving just one example of wasteful government spending.
Were you drunk when you wrote this?
No, I was preoccupied with your mother in bed.
The fact is, as a society, we have decided that we want to have a country which has value for living in-which includes nice roads, good hospitals, good schools, scientific research, culture, and entertainment.
Yes, and some of those are the responsibilities of government and some of those are private endeavors. Why should the government fund artwork? What does the government have to do with individual expression?
Governments spend money, and in turn they create jobs
I see you're from China and in your country the government sticks their nose in to everything. Granted. But the express purpose of my government is to be limited so that private enterprise can flourish. The government in my country creates government jobs. The government didn't create FedEx, General Dynamics, General Motors or the myriad of other companies that exist.
they circulate money throughout the society and they create worth.
They create fiat currency, and what happens when no one wants to invest in your money anymore because it has no intrinsic value? It causes rampant inflation and essentially makes the value less and less.
Perhaps the only thing that causes our nation to incur debt as a result of spending, is when we wage war, and engage in other international escapes like in the middle east, where our money is handed out to Iraqi and Afghan warlords.
The national debt started long before these wars. There is no one reason why there is such a staggering debt. There are multiple reasons, like the enormous debt on Social Security.
The main thing that destroys a country's economy and causes ruin, is when too much money is allowed to get into the hands of too few people. This is precisely what your vaunted "free market" actually achieves.
Uh, what? Explain how free markets prevent too few people to get money when the explicit point is for all to have the unobstructed purpose of moving capital around.
No one would concern themselves with the long term goals of a company or society, instead they would simply make as much profit as quickly as possible, at the expensive of quality, at the expense of social responsibility, at the expense of employing as few people as possible, at the expense of transparency, at the expense of the country's future stability. If I can make more than my neighbor, in whatever legal means necessary, than that is nirvana.
That's how it is in the real world. No one goes to work for the good of mankind, they go to work so they can feed themselves and their families! History continues to testify to this basic and simple economic fact.
Well, that may be nirvana for you, but it is not nirvana for a country. I suggest if that is your goal, go move to a small island and make as much money as you can all by yourself, because your ideals don't work at all with the concept of a community and a country.
Really, is that why communism has been so successful? As professor John Nash illustrates, the most success one can achieve is to maximize and be most advantageous. Through both serving their own interests and the interests of everyone else. A healthy economy is where individuals are free to trade with minimal government interference. That serves all of society, even the government itself.
Even in your country, they're figuring this simple principle. China today is not the China of the past. And they're flourishing as a result.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 9:02 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 11:49 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 172 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 12:41 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 173 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 8:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 171 of 184 (538823)
12-10-2009 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Hyroglyphx
12-10-2009 10:18 AM


Re: CATO
You might want to be careful making too many observations about how you think China's economy works, until you have a complete understanding of how a country on a similar amount of land mass as America, but with nearly 5 times the population and with a much smaller amount of that land arable, manages to adequately feed the entire nation-for the most part better than America does.
However, if you want to see a clear example of what happens when you let greed run free, just look at America for the past 8 years. Not a model I think many countries would wish to emulate.
Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.
Edited by Bolder-dash, : math

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-10-2009 10:18 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2009 10:01 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 179 by onifre, posted 12-12-2009 10:29 AM Bolder-dash has replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 172 of 184 (538826)
12-10-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Hyroglyphx
12-10-2009 10:18 AM


Re: CATO
BTW, I believe the spending for the National Endowment for the Arts was approximately .0048 of 1 percent of the federal budget in 2008.
For 2009 it was proposed by the White House to be less than half of that, but I believe it has now been dropped to zero.
And I think yes there is ONE souce of the deficit for America.
Bombs, and the accessories for dropping them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-10-2009 10:18 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2009 10:10 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 173 of 184 (539019)
12-12-2009 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Hyroglyphx
12-10-2009 10:18 AM


Re: CATO
There is another more obvious problem with the free market ideals of yours and Phage0070.
Countries need a certain labor force. We need people to install telephone lines, and fix washing machines, and to build streets and do all kinds of other things. Those people will never be paid as much as stock brokers and actors and sports stars. And yet they provide as much value and more likely more to the society than the other professions.
In your free market scenario, you want those people to to be happy with what they have, or find something else to do, and leave the finer benefits of life to the stock brokers and movie stars. And yet we only have a limited number of resources for people to do those jobs, and we still need the workers. So it is definitely in the country's best interest that the people who are doing the jobs that are never going to be high paying, at least are able to sustain a life that is rewarding and safe, and that includes having their children not be susceptible from dying because they can't afford health insurance.
This is such common sense that it seems it shouldn't even need to be pointed out to some people..but frankly some people are just stupid and fail to understand that some government spending is good, useful and necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-10-2009 10:18 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2009 9:37 AM Bolder-dash has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 184 (539028)
12-12-2009 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Bolder-dash
12-12-2009 8:55 AM


Re: CATO
Countries need a certain labor force. We need people to install telephone lines, and fix washing machines, and to build streets and do all kinds of other things. Those people will never be paid as much as stock brokers and actors and sports stars. And yet they provide as much value and more likely more to the society than the other professions.
So what? It's a contract between individuals. You either agree to the terms and conditions of employment or you don't agree with them and find a new profession. What then is your solution to the false dilemma? The even distribution of poverty?
In your free market scenario, you want those people to to be happy with what they have, or find something else to do, and leave the finer benefits of life to the stock brokers and movie stars.
If I am reading between the lines correctly, what this seems to be about is envy of success.
And yet we only have a limited number of resources for people to do those jobs, and we still need the workers.
The unemployment rate has remained statistically at 5% for a long time. That means there are plenty of jobs, and wealth creates new jobs that otherwise would have been unavailable.
So it is definitely in the country's best interest that the people who are doing the jobs that are never going to be high paying
Most jobs are payed for their services. Some jobs are vastly more difficult than others and should be payed accordingly. An individual working a cash register does not require tremendous thought or effort. A highly specialized doctor on the other hand is very learned and skilled, requiring much more technical know-how. Are you suggesting that the cash register operator should make the same as the doctor? If so, what is the incentive to ever try hard? Why not just take the easiest job possible and collect checks?
This is such common sense that it seems it shouldn't even need to be pointed out to some people..but frankly some people are just stupid and fail to understand that some government spending is good, useful and necessary.
Government spending on necessary things that the government is responsible for is good; i.e. roads, military, postal services, water supply, etc. Are you suggesting that the government should run everything?
Are you a Communist?
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 8:55 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 10:02 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 184 (539030)
12-12-2009 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 11:49 AM


Re: CATO
You might want to be careful making too many observations about how you think China's economy works, until you have a complete understanding of how a country on a similar amount of land mass as America, but with nearly 5 times the population and with a much smaller amount of that land arable, manages to adequately feed the entire nation-for the most part better than America does.
There is no food shortage for either country due to wise production. If American's are going hungry, it's not because there is a shortage of food. In China that may be the case, but that is not the case in America.
However, if you want to see a clear example of what happens when you let greed run free, just look at America for the past 8 years. Not a model I think many countries would wish to emulate.
What do you constitute as greed being that China produces upwards of 60% of America's good for none other than money.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 11:49 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 176 of 184 (539031)
12-12-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Hyroglyphx
12-12-2009 9:37 AM


Re: CATO
Why do you want the government to insure that it citizens get water, or protection from missiles, but not protection from diseases?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2009 9:37 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2009 10:12 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 184 (539032)
12-12-2009 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 12:41 PM


Re: CATO
I believe the spending for the National Endowment for the Arts was approximately .0048 of 1 percent of the federal budget in 2008.
The amount does not matter, especially when you add up all the other unnecessary programs that have to be taxed in order to run going to things that should not be government funded.
I think yes there is ONE souce of the deficit for America.
Bombs, and the accessories for dropping them.
While I agree too much is spent on the military-industrial complex, defense is the role of government and is indispensable to any nation. The reasons for the deficits are complex and is not the fault of any one thing. It is an accumulation of terrible government misjudgments and mismanagement.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 12:41 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 184 (539033)
12-12-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Bolder-dash
12-12-2009 10:02 AM


Re: CATO
Why do you want the government to insure that it citizens get water, or protection from missiles, but not protection from diseases?
Where did I say that I don't want the government to protect its citizens from disease? We have the Center for Disease Control and I approve of its existence.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 10:02 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 179 of 184 (539035)
12-12-2009 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Bolder-dash
12-10-2009 11:49 AM


Re: CATO
You might want to be careful making too many observations about how you think China's economy works, until you have a complete understanding of how a country on a similar amount of land mass as America, but with nearly 5 times the population and with a much smaller amount of that land arable, manages to adequately feed the entire nation-for the most part better than America does.
It is sickening to actually see someone trying to defend the Imperialist nation of China, you should be ashamed. The human rights issues in China (not that they are as disgraceful as Israel) are atrocious.
How are the Tibets eating these days?
Consider alone, the efforts of the Chinese government to flood Tibet with mass migrations of Han Chinese in order to dilute the percentage of ethnic Tibetans. Its a form of ethnic cleansing!
How can you stand by that?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-10-2009 11:49 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-12-2009 10:53 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 181 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-12-2009 11:02 AM onifre has not replied

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 180 of 184 (539039)
12-12-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by onifre
12-12-2009 10:29 AM


Re: CATO
Talk about off topic!
The people eat there just fine by the way.
BTW, when will you be going to the UN to protest the actions of Israel? Maybe I can go with you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by onifre, posted 12-12-2009 10:29 AM onifre has not replied

  
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