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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Really Suffer?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 43 of 73 (535791)
11-18-2009 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
11-17-2009 8:54 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Hyroghlyphx writes:
What we do know, however, is that A&E did not eat the flesh of animals. So it is reasonable to say that the illustrations meant by Moses in Genesis is that all life on earth lived in the perfect world that God created for man. That includes no death, until they ate of the fruit which changed everything.
Why?
why would the punishment given to A&E transfere to the animals by default?
Paul explained that 'death spread to all MEN because they had all sinned'
If you think the animals also enjoyed everlasting life, you'd need to be able to explain how they could have sinned to bring death upon themselves.
Hyroglyphx writes:
I know most Christians would like to believe that, but the biblical criteria for salvation and history serves a testament to it not being synonymous.
you think that people of the church's are not being judged? And do you think that once saved always saved???
Not likely.
They are the first to be judged by God and at his appointed time those who do not conform to the Christ will not be shown any favor.
Being a part of the church does not make you 'saved'
Hyroglyphx writes:
Catholicism cannot be blamed from the introduction of the trinity, the writers of the bible should be blamed.
if thats what you think, you need to read up on church history.
Hyroglyphx writes:
And yet no one has ever lived on earth forever, so how can that be the goal?
Because that was what God had originally purposed for A&E. His purpose has not changed just because they skrewed up. It is still Gods purpose for those who want to be a part of it.
Hyroglyphx writes:
The mere fact that the righteous are raptured to heaven, while all the vile people are not caught up. Then the dead are judged and will either reside in heaven or in hell. That's the endgame for mankind. We either reside in heaven with the Lord and he wipes every tear from our eye, or we weep and gnash teeth for all eternity.
all those scriptures I provided you about living on the earth and you are still stuck in the 'heaven' mode. Thats indoctrination if ever i saw it lol
For someone who doesnt beleive in religion, you are certainly programed well.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Then why did that not come to pass when he died on the cross?
because there was a lot of work to do with regard to teaching mankind
Jesus, as the head of Gods kingdom has been overseeing the work that he gave to his apostles to teach people about the kingdom. Today the message is in almost all the lands on earth from the icy arctic regions to the middle of the dryest deserts, from the islands of the southpacific to the communistic athiestic countries such as china even.
Jesus prophecies about the last days began earlier this century and they are soon to come to their fulfillment...when that time comes, then Jesus will go into action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-17-2009 8:54 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2009 10:02 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 45 of 73 (535992)
11-19-2009 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Teapots&unicorns
11-18-2009 4:18 PM


Re: Damning evidence
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Yes, but he was the one who made that rule up for the sake of having a rule. You have provided no adequate reason, Peg. Please stop avoiding the question.
The reason was clearly given to them in the verse i quoted.
here it is again
Genesis 2:16, 17 "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die"
They were told clearly that they shouldnt eat from the tree because if they did, they would die.
Its like me telling my child "dont touch the stove because it will burn you"
should the child need more explaination then that??? What more could i say to them to show that touching the stove is dangerous and should be avoided???
Teapots&unicorns writes:
It's no wonder the Church condemned heretics like you
the church condemned heretics like me because they spoke out against false teachings...they showed how the church had twisted the meaning of scripture to instill fear
Teaposts&unicorns writes:
Revelation 14:10-11
can you explain this verse and show how this means people will suffer physical punishment in hell?
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell THE GRAVE, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Think about it.... the greek word for 'grave' is translated as 'hell'
The meaning of the greek word for 'grave' is the 'pit' or the place of burial...its the place where we get buried when we die.
So clearly the writer is simply saying that it is better for you to enter into life with only one hand, then have to go to your 'grave' with two.
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
this is not a story Jesus gave about a real person. It was an allegory about the spiritual condition of those who became his followers. The man in 'hell' was in spiritually 'dead' condition while Lazaraz/Jesus diciples enjoyed being close to Abraham/God
this scripture is not a good one to use if you are trying to prove what hell is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-18-2009 4:18 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by bluescat48, posted 11-19-2009 8:27 AM Peg has replied
 Message 50 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-19-2009 7:40 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 47 of 73 (536008)
11-19-2009 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by bluescat48
11-19-2009 8:27 AM


Re: Damning evidence
bluescat48 writes:
One point, if the child did not know what being burnt was, the statement has no meaning. Similarly how would Adam & Eve know what death was since, according to your scripture, there was no death before the Tree of Knowledge fruit eating incident? One could correlate that A&E whwere as children, that is ignorant.
as i mentioned earlier, there is no reason to assume that the animals did not die.
the scriptures only speak about mankind dieing because it is the consequence of sin.
Animals cannot sin since they have no consciousness of Gods laws... And yet they die, so it should be concluded that they always did die and therefore A&E knew what death was.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by bluescat48, posted 11-19-2009 8:27 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 49 of 73 (536074)
11-19-2009 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Hyroglyphx
11-19-2009 10:02 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Hyroglyphx writes:
The clear allusion from Genesis and other passages in the bible describe the antediluvian world and the pre-Fall Garden of Eden was meant to be, essentially, a heaven on earth where everything was peaceful; and death non-existent until A&E ate of the fruit.
yes it does and I agree that it will be again
But unlike Adam, at no time were the animlas given a command, nor did they have set before them the prospect of eternal life.
If you think about it, animals had been living and dying and some becoming extinct, dinosaurs for instance, for many thousands of years before mans creation.
Hyroglyphx writes:
I tell you the truth, today you will be in heaven." -Jesus Christ, Son of God; LLC
you didnt mention the reference to the scripture, so im guessing it might by this one Luke 23:42-43 where Jesus told the man next to him on the torture stake
And he went on to say: Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom. 43And he said to him: Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.
the KJV uses the word paradise here, as does many other versions. Paradeisoi means 'garden'
there are no gardens in heaven for its not a phyical place, so if your quote comes from this scripture, then Jesus is actually telling the man that he will live again in paradise on earth.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Why then were the apostles so sure that the End Times would be in their generation? Does a generation last more 2 thousand years?
the apostles had the wrong idea on many things. For instance they thought that Jesus kingdom was going to be ruling from Jerusalem in their day, they didnt believe Jesus when he told them he must die or when he told them Jerusalem was soon to be destroyed. But understanding comes from God when he is ready to reveal things. Eventually the apostles did understand that the kingdom was not going to be on earth and the Jesus would die and jerusalem would be destroyed.
Christians including the JW's have had the wrong expectations at times too and have not always fully understood the scriptures. This does not mean the scriptures were wrong, it means that their understanding was wrong. Eventually God provides understanding and teachings become clearer. This has been the case with the JW's and they have been willing to change some of their teachings over time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2009 10:02 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-20-2009 8:52 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 51 of 73 (536156)
11-20-2009 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Teapots&unicorns
11-19-2009 7:40 PM


Re: Please Stop Dodging the Questions
Teapots&unicorns writes:
A&E had no sin qualia. There was literally no such thing until it came into existence after they ate the fruit!!
You are only speculating on that point. Why do you assume the animals never died in the garden? I know the bible does not say anything like that, so why do you assume that is the case?
Teapots&unicorns writes:
The condemned will taste God's wrath, which is undilutedly given to those who are damned. The damned will be forever tortured with burning fire and brimstone while being watched stoically by both Jesus and the angels of God.
well this places Hell, not below the earth, but in heaven because thats where the Angels and Jesus reside. Can you now show me scriptures that say that this place of 'hell' is located in heaven?
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Peg, if you are so convinced that 'hell' means 'grave,' please give a link to an expert with a non-christian agenda to verify this as such.
Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says: Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.
Encyclopaedia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276) noted: Sheol was located somewhere ‘under’ the earth.... The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and the bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentilesall slept together without awareness of one another.
Brynmor F.Price and Eugene A.Nida noted: The word occurs often in the Psalms and in the book of Job to refer to the place to which all dead people go. It is represented as a dark place, in which there is no activity worthy of the name. There are no moral distinctions there, so ‘hell’ (KJV) is not a suitable translation, since that suggests a contrast with ‘heaven’ as the dwelling-place of the righteous after death. In a sense, ‘the grave’ in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together.... The use of this particular imagery may have been considered suitable here [in Jonah 2:2] in view of Jonah’s imprisonment in the interior of the fish.A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, 1978, p. 37.
Teapots&unicorns writes:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-19-2009 7:40 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-24-2009 4:13 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 62 of 73 (536789)
11-25-2009 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Teapots&unicorns
11-24-2009 4:13 PM


Re: Please Stop Dodging the Questions
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Also, just something I'm wondering; If there is no heaven/hell, then why follow God?
because following God means everlasting life on earth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-24-2009 4:13 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-25-2009 2:34 PM Peg has not replied

  
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