Has natural selection really been tested and verified?

Hi Bolder-dash and welcome to EvC!Your proposal is fine except where you propose your own guidelines. EvC Forum already has a set of Forum Guidelines that are enforced by moderators, and discussion participants are not permitted to add their own. Your preference for focusing on the natural selection of sexual species is fine because that is simply delimiting the topic, but participants do not make the decisions about what constitutes valid discussion. That would be the moderator's realm.Please edit your opening post to make this minor adjustment, then post a short note to this thread letting me know you're done and I'll take another look.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi all!I told CosmicChimp that I'd keep an eye on this thread. So far so good. I do see occasional hints of frustration, but no worries as of now, though it would be nice if those given to focusing too much attention on the foibles of other participants rather than the topic would try to rein it in a bit more. Just letting y'all know I'm here.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Bolder-dash,Please let moderators handle moderation issues. If you are having problems with discussion then you should post to Report discussion problems here: No.2. Participants should keep their attention focused on the topic and not on the perceived misdeeds of other participants.About the nature of the actual topic of discussion, I thought this was resolved back in Message 22 when you said: Participants have mentioned a couple additional important details about how they believe evolution works. These are best explained by those who have already been talking about them, but let me briefly describe each one so it is clear what I'm referring to. First, it has been suggested that mutations are not necessary for natural selection to operate. For example, if a region experiences sudden and dramatic climate change then natural selection will immediately begin weeding out those individuals and species not sufficiently well suited to the new environment.Second, it has also been suggested that mutations are not the only source of evolutionary change. For example, all species already have a great store of variation within their genomes, and these variations can be expressed to varying degrees within a population, ranging from not at all to fully expressed. Natural selection can perform profound changes on a population by changing the frequency and degree to which various genomic traits are expressed in the phenotype.To everyone: While keeping in mind that no one wants to read book-length messages or even long essays, I think that some explanations have been spread out across too many posts, with the result that some explanations haven't been grasped.Please, no replies to this message.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Bolder-dash,I appreciate some of the difficulties you're facing. I agree that the evolutionists, who I believe are well intentioned individually, are collectively providing a confusing picture, but on the other hand I can see where correct information is being provided that you're missing. For example, you say: I'm sure everyone agrees with you. You can't talk about evolution without mentioning random mutations. But you *can* talk about natural selection without mentioning mutations, and several people have attempted to explain this. Don't think of me as an evolutionist moderator, but instead as a moderator who understands evolution. As moderator I'm not agreeing with the evolutionists that evolution is right and creation is wrong. I'm agreeing with them that they are correctly defining evolution, natural selection, random mutation, etc.Whenever you receive more than one definition of something, as is happening here for the fundamental terminology of evolution, you'll always be able to find differences and apparent conflicts in those definitions. No two people will ever define the same thing the same way. This is just a fact of life. You're going to have to work through the different and differing explanations in order to build your own understanding of evolution. You might find other online resources helpful. For example, Wikipedia provides this definition of natural selection: Notice, no mention of mutations. The first mention of mutation occurs a few paragraphs further on and says this, which includes an important point you've been making yourself where it comments about the need for understanding the origin of variation: I don't know if you appreciate sports analogies, but I always feel that the best referees are those you're not aware of. I feel the same way about moderation. Moderators should facilitate discussions, not intrude or impose upon them. A light hand is best, allowing thread participants to work out as many difficulties as they can on their own.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi RAZD,Please let moderators handle the moderation issues. If you feel you are experiencing problems in discussion then please post to Report discussion problems here: No.2. Otherwise keep the focus on the topic.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Seeing something severely misunderstood does tend to bring responses that resemble "touching a nerve" from those familiar with it.You're quite free to discuss random mutations as it relates to natural selection, but if you still don't understand that natural selection would go on even if for some mysterious reason random mutations ceased occurring then discussion will still tend to center on this misunderstanding. And you have other misunderstandings, for instance this here from your Message 192: Yes, precisely.For as long as you continue to misunderstand evolution the discussion will tend to center on those misunderstandings. You say this is "obfuscating" your intended topic, but understanding evolution is a prerequisite to any discussion that would make sense.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Bolder-dash,I think you're misinterpreting what is being said, both by myself and others. When I said, "that natural selection would go on even if for some mysterious reason random mutations ceased occurring," that didn't mean I was asking you to talk about natural selection independent of evolution. What that meant was that even if all random mutations ceased occurring, evolutionary change over time would still occur through natural selection.I also said, "You're quite free to discuss random mutations as it relates to natural selection."I think this is enough moderator interaction. In this thread please start discussing and stop complaining. Your perceived mistreatment is not the topic of this thread. If you're having problems with discussion then please take the issues to Report discussion problems here: No.2.Please, no replies to this message.Edited by Admin, : Fix thread link.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Everyone:Please confine your discussion and comments to the topic.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi everyone!I've temporarily closed this thread so that everyone can take note of my concern about the recent lack of focus on the topic. When I reopen the thread in a couple hours (probably around 2PM Eastern Time US) I will suspend for 24 hours those making discussion of the topic more difficult.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Everyone!This thread has been reopened for discussion of the topic. Please take other topics and issues to the appropriate threads. I'll be issuing 24-hour suspensions if need be.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi folks!Modulus and Bolder-dash returned to discussion of the topic (see Message 256), but this exchange was followed by a slew of off-topic posts and complaints.If you have something to say about the topic or that fits into on-going discussion, please post here.Please takes complaints about discussion to Report discussion problems here: No.2.If you want to make meta-comments about the discussion, take them to the Peanut Gallery.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Given how little this thread's topic is being discussed I'm going to enforce the 300 post cutoff, so time for summations.Please, do not reply to anyone's messages.Please, post only summations.Please, post only one summation.Please, post only on-topic. I'll be hiding off-topic posts and portions of posts.If you post before seeing this, go back and edit your post into a summation.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

A summation isn't a rebuttal that happens to be your last post. Think of summations more as what a lawyer does in his closing arguments, which are made to the jury and not to the other side. Refer to the other side in the 3rd person.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Thanks for your participation, everyone! Closing this one down.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director