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Author Topic:   Has natural selection really been tested and verified?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 214 of 302 (537358)
11-28-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Peg
11-28-2009 6:40 AM


Back to Basics --- Vocabulary For Peg
Let's take it from the top.
(1) Evolution is a heritable change in the composition of a gene pool.
This would include a lot of things. The changes in the beaks of the finches is evolution. The descent of humans from what we may as well call "monkeys" would be evolution. If every lioness in the world stopped giving birth to lion cubs and started giving birth to unicorns, and this involved a change from lion DNA to unicorn DNA (and how could it not?) then this would also be evolution. Indeed, if all lions suddenly turned into unicorns, by magic or the will of God, and this change was inherited by their offspring, then this too would be evolution.
(2a) The principle of common descent is the proposition that all present species have been produced from just one original life-form by evolution.
(2b) A claim of common ancestry concerning any bunch of species is the claim that they all evolved from the same species. So common descent is the claim that all species have common ancestry.
(3) The theory of evolution is a theory about how evolution happens. It proposes that it occurs as a result of such well-known genetic processes as reproduction, mutation, recombination, lateral gene transfer, natural selection (including sexual selection), artificial selection, genetic drift, and the laws of probability.
Note that this theory is a constraint on evolution (just as every other scientific theory is a constraint on its subject matter). It says what can't happen --- for example, it rules out lions giving birth to unicorns.
The principle of common descent is almost always taken to be the initial condition for the theory of evolution, so much so that people often speak of it as part of that theory. I've done that myself, I admit. But to be accurate we should separate them, just as the proposition that the Universe began with a Big Bang is separate from Einstein's theory of General Relativity.
(4) The law of natural selection is the proposition that those organisms which are genetically best suited to propagate their genes will indeed tend to get their genes propagated better than those organisms that are less well-suited to that task.
---
Now, let's look at what creationists should be saying.
You shouldn't say: "I don't believe in evolution", 'cos it happens.
You shouldn't say: "I don't believe in the theory of evolution" unless that's absolutely what you mean. Because a lot of creationists do believe in it, and believe that they can use it to disprove common descent. My favorite creationist slevesque is going down that route. Remember that, as I said, the theory of evolution places constraints on what evolution can do. If anyone wants to prove that common descent couldn't possibly happen, then the theory of evolution is the only tool they've got to work with.
You shouldn't say: "I don't believe in natural selection", because the law of natural selection is so obvious that you could prove it from your armchair without even glancing at nature.
What you should be saying is: "Yes, evolution happens, we observe it. And I grant you, indeed I insist, that there are no known mechanisms for evolution except those enumerated in the theory of evolution. And in particular the law of natural selection is so obvious that no sane person could dispute it. What I dispute is the common ancestry of men and monkeys and indeed the whole principle of common descent".
And if you were someone who argues after the style of slevesque, you should then add: "As a matter of fact, I think that the theory of evolution puts the tin lid on the whole notion of common descent".
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Peg, posted 11-28-2009 6:40 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Peg, posted 11-28-2009 9:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 217 of 302 (537362)
11-28-2009 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Peg
11-28-2009 8:01 AM


Re: Back to Basics
right
so no new species evolved...they were still finches.
Right.
No-one has ever claimed otherwise.
We claim that this is an example of natural selection in action.
this is just moving the goalposts. What really was happening to the finches is that they were adapting to change. Like animals who loose their winter coat in summer.
No, not like that.
This is not a change that happened to any finch as an individual. No particular finch lengthened its beak. What happened was that the finches with longer beaks had more offspring.
This seems to be where you're getting confused. What happened was not like a cat shedding its fur in summer, or like me getting a tan when I moved to a sunnier climate. No individual finch changed. The reproductive success rates of the finches changed, so the proportion of the genes in the gene pool changed.
That's what makes it evolution.
I take it that this is how the ToE has changed greatly over the years.
You've separated 'descent from a common ancestor' and the 'ToE' as if they are two different things.
in a few words, please explain the difference between:
'common descent'
'the theory of evolution'
Anticipating your need, I did that in my previous post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Peg, posted 11-28-2009 8:01 AM Peg has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 218 of 302 (537364)
11-28-2009 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by ICANT
11-28-2009 8:48 AM


Re: Back to Basics
But that is not what the study shows.
It simply shows in wet times the species that has the small beaks have a better survival rate than those with large beaks.
It also shows that the species that has the large beaks survive better in the dry times than those with the small beaks.
It does not show the species with the small beaks growing large beaks, and the species with the large beaks growing small beaks.
* sigh *
We're not talking about two different species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by ICANT, posted 11-28-2009 8:48 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by herebedragons, posted 11-28-2009 10:28 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 222 of 302 (537386)
11-28-2009 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Bolder-dash
11-28-2009 7:49 AM


Re: Back to Basics
You know Peg, one of the reasons why evolutionist have been able to stifle the conversation, and argument in their favor regarding schools and other avenues for learning more about our existence, is by doing exactly what they do on this site. They attempt to belittle and characterize anyone who disagrees with their position as being whacky, uneducated, brain-washed religious zealots, or people with their heads in the sand. They do it here on this forum (which in actuality is a evolutionist website-which allows creationists to participate, and they do it regularly to you.
Anytime they are challenged to defend anything, they throw out the same card time and time again, their ace in the hole-"Oh, you just don't understand science."
But has it not occurred to you that in your case this is true?
That you do not, in fact, know evolutionary biology from a hole in the ground?
You may have heard the expression: "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".
Well, to continue that metaphor, you have brought a turnip to a gunfight. You have pointed it at your opponent, you have shouted "BANG" very loudly, and now you are throwing a hissy-fit because instead of him politely lying down and saying "OK, you shot me, I admit that I'm dead", he's standing there laughing at you for bringing a turnip to a gunfight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 7:49 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 225 of 302 (537391)
11-28-2009 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Peg
11-28-2009 9:12 AM


Re: Back to Basics --- Vocabulary For Peg
Ok, so right here is where we see that the original theory of evolution - Descent with modification leading to all the millions of forms of life - has changed to
inheritable change in the gene pool ...
No, you're wrong.
Read the definitions again.
You are still confusing evolution with the theory of evolution, and the theory of evolution with common descent. The last confusion is forgivable, the first is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Peg, posted 11-28-2009 9:12 AM Peg has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 227 of 302 (537393)
11-28-2009 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Bolder-dash
11-28-2009 10:12 AM


Re: Back to Basics
Exactly how many posts in this thread can you read that refer to the topic?
After you can answer that question, then perhaps you can tell me how worthwhile the forum is, and explain to me how its a debate, as opposed to a trial where the plaintive is also the judge, the jury , and the bailiff. Enjoy your flagellation. I think I will stick to sites that actually have a real moderator for now.
Or even no moderator would be an improvement.
If this means that you're going to take your ball and go home, then goodbye.
I should still advise you to learn the meaning of the words that you're using if you ever wish to engage in any further debate on this topic.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 10:12 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 10:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 233 of 302 (537402)
11-28-2009 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by herebedragons
11-28-2009 10:28 AM


Re: Back to Basics
Has speciation occurred in Galapogos finches or not?
Of course --- but not during the few years that anyone has been looking, and no-one has ever claimed that it has.
Or has it been observed anywhere for that matter?
Yes. But don't just take my word for it.
For example, the CreationWiki states:
Speciation, or the formation of a new species, does occur with some regularity.
And the foremost creationist site on the internet, Answers in Genesis, states:
New species have been observed to form. In fact, rapid speciation is an important part of the creation model.
When creationists have so far given up on denying speciation that they're now claiming it as "an important part of the creationist model", then I believe that the debate is over.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by herebedragons, posted 11-28-2009 10:28 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by herebedragons, posted 11-29-2009 12:04 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 235 of 302 (537404)
11-28-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Bolder-dash
11-28-2009 10:38 AM


Re: Back to Basics
Further debate would imply that you actually debated on this topic. I see no evidence of that.
You're good at not seeing evidence for reality.
Er ... should I congratulate you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 10:38 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 238 of 302 (537407)
11-28-2009 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Admin
11-28-2009 11:09 AM


Re: Moderator Warning
Please confine your discussion and comments to the topic.
Oh, that thing.
What happened to that?
We were talking about moths and guppies and finches and actual observations of the law of natural selection actually happening, which seemed like splendid ways to test the law of natural selection, and then somehow the stupid bomb exploded.
---
P.S: My previous post was posted after your warning, but I started posting it before I'd read it, and so it was not intended to be in defiance of your fiat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Admin, posted 11-28-2009 11:09 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 245 of 302 (537445)
11-28-2009 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Admin
11-28-2009 2:02 PM


Re: Thread Reopened
I guess that means that no-one is allowed to answer post #241, right?
Then why is it still there?

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 Message 244 by Admin, posted 11-28-2009 2:02 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 263 of 302 (537495)
11-29-2009 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Peg
11-28-2009 6:26 PM


Re: Back to Basics
one very crucial point in the golapogas finch study...one that was not promoted too loudly....was that the different species of finches could still breed and produce offspring that survived better than the parents.
That's not actually true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Peg, posted 11-28-2009 6:26 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Peg, posted 11-29-2009 4:31 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 264 of 302 (537496)
11-29-2009 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by herebedragons
11-29-2009 12:04 AM


Re: Back to Basics
You left out part of the quote from CreationWiki (I wonder why???)
Because I am not obliged to quote everything they've ever written when I merely wish to prove that they admit that speciation happens. The fact that they have also said many things which are stupid and false is not my concern.
And the closest quote I could find on Answers In Genesis are:
Unfortunately their server is down, so I can't help you with that right now.
I have read the creationist literature, but have not used it on this forum. It would be dismissed as creationist propaganda.
Right. But when even creationist propagandists admit speciation, doesn't that tell you something?
Thus this biological barrier has not been broken. Have I misinterpreted these studies?
In order to misinterpret them, you'd have to have read them.
So I suspect that you haven't misinterpreted them, but rather that someone else has misinterpreted them for you.
So this supports the idea that a genetic barrier exists.
Whereas the fact that giraffes and coelacanths can't interbreed suggests that it doesn't.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by herebedragons, posted 11-29-2009 12:04 AM herebedragons has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by xongsmith, posted 11-29-2009 12:12 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 266 of 302 (537499)
11-29-2009 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by ICANT
11-29-2009 1:26 AM


Re: Back to Basics
The study proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the finches that get the most eatable food survive and reproduce better.
Thank you. Are we done here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by ICANT, posted 11-29-2009 1:26 AM ICANT has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 274 of 302 (537551)
11-29-2009 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Peg
11-29-2009 4:31 AM


Hybrids
I have read the Grants' papers on the finches. What I was disputing was not your claim that they hybridized but that the hybrids were fitter than the parent species. If this was so, then surely they'd have displaced them? At any rate, I can't think offhand what mechanism could prevent this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Peg, posted 11-29-2009 4:31 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Peg, posted 11-30-2009 12:28 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 275 of 302 (537552)
11-29-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Bolder-dash
11-29-2009 9:49 AM


Re: moderator request re topic
Scientifically solid evidence, not conjecture because we have no other theory, that NS (through the use of RM) is responsible for the complexity of life on earth.
I believe that you were asked for a definition of "evolutionary change". I'm fairly sure that that isn't one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-29-2009 9:49 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

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