The flood and Ancient Chinese Documents

For anyone reading this, I don't think everyone has explored another option. We have to remember that the geanealogies of Genesis are incomplete and sometimes not clear on the actual times. The Hebrew word for father is 'ab which in addition to father can also mean grandfather, great grandfather ext. The san is true of son which comes from the hebrew word ben which can also mean grandson or great grandson ext. It is most likely that humanity began with Adam and Eve closer to 50 or 60 thousand years ago as modern science tells us. I believe that figure is roughly correct.Anyway, in a ddition to this we have to remember that in the time of the Bible, people did not think of things globally the way we do today. When we are told the flood covered the whole earth we must realize it is written by Moses from Noah's perspective. To Noah, everything under the stars and what he could see was the whole world. Also when the Bible tells us that water filled the highest peaks/mountains, the hebrew words for mountains are kol heharim and hugebohim. These can be used to mean hill, mountain, or hill country. If such a flood did occur as I believe it did, it is only logical to think that it was localized to mesopotamia where the people were and also that it occured at much later dates than people have been giving. If anyone is interested, I can give both scientific reasons and biblical reasons why the flood was not global but intead universal only to humanity. That is if soeone has not already done so in another forum.

Even so, when it says,"when X was Y years old he became the father of Z," this is the english translation. When read in hebrew it can also mean that when X was Y years old he became the father of a "family line which included or culminated in Z." Often times, names which are not especially noteable are left out of the genealogies. This is widely accepted by Bible scholars, who are both believing and non-believing, as an acceptable reading. It is the general acceptance that there are gaps in the genealogies of genesis. Parallels can be seen elsewhere in the Bible like in a geanealogy in Mathew 1:8 which we know left names out because the same genealogy in 1 Chronicles 3:10-12 has more names and is more complete. These lists are meant to be adequateAs for the origins of man in Mesopotamia, secular anthropologists are divided over whether humanity was started by multiple couples in different locations or one couple somewhere in Northern Africa. To those who believe the latter this could be the source of Adam and Eve. Perhaps whatever Eden there was existed in this place or near it and when they were cast out east it brought then into Mesopotamia. However I am talking about something that happened before the supposed flood. It would be rather difficult to say where Eden was because it is irrelevant if it were destroyed. What I am suggesting is that whatever flood occured happened before people migrated to different continents on land bridges 20-30 thousand years ago.

I don't believe that is true. Just last year I took a biological anthropology class my professor told us that there were different views on man's origin within anthropology and that the one I described was one of them. Unfortunately the name escapes me but I know it was in the textbook, and I believe it was a test question. And no, I don't go to a Christian school. San Diego State is about as secular as they come.

I thought the common ancestor for females was somewhere around 60 thousand years ago. I also thought a common ancestor for man was also determined using the y chromosone instead of mitochondria. Also, if people had inbreeded why could we not have descended from a single couple? By the way, there is no need to be patronizing. I actually appreciate the dialogue and the clarification. i will have to look into it.

John,
I know your going to hate me for this but try and bear with me. I wanna bring this back to the flood. Keep in mind that i don't believe in a global flood. Now, I just read the article on the link you posted and it confirmed what I said about the chromosone and males. Anyway, beside the point, let's pretend just to humor me that their was in fact a flood. Okay, maybe this explains the gap between the common ancestor for modern women and the common ancestor for modern man. Think about who the Bible tells us is on the ark, assuming they are the ones to repopulate. You have 4 blood related males. Noah and his three sons. So who is the common ancestor? Noah is.
Okay now we also have the wives of these men. 4 females who are not blood related so their common female ancestor would be much farther back. Possibly Eve?Just a thought to put out there

I thought it was generally accepted that inbreeding would not show genetic difficulties until many multiple generations have passed. Am I mistaken?

"If there was a flood that was global to humanity (and there is no evidence of that) it would have to be in Africa."Again, I don't think there was a global flood.Just for arguments sake, if people for some reason were able to live 900 years(bear with me), could it be possible that whatever population started out as could have increased exponentially over time to give us a population diverse enough genetically to justify what we observe today.The reason I bring this up is that although alot of people accept the 900 year life spans as myths. I've heard some interesting hypothesis to the contrary.Two of the reasons we age the way we do is from radiation from radio isotopes in igneous rock and another is cosmic radiation. Now Biblical culture from what I understand were segregated from igneous rock. Now suppose that we could attribute (again this is just a hypothesis) alot of the cosmic radiation we experience today to the relatively close Vela supernova which occured 20-30 thousand years ago.Next comes Telomerase, which if I'm correct is an enzyme which adds on nucleotide base pairs to the ends of DNA so that chromosones can divide more times and end up prolonging life. The consequence of this however, is that one becomes highly vulnerable to cancer via radiation. What if a person living before the Vela supernova (assuming the above hypothesis) had some sort(I'm not suggesting what or from where) of enzyme supplement coupled with a vegetarian diet, which coincidentally was instructed by God until after the flood. Could not that person live much longer than we live now?

I'm not sure what I was thinking. i totally missed what I should have been saying which is...What about the earth's population coming from the survivors of the flood? That is 8 people.

Nevermind, I'm not sure that matters.Anyway, about the incest thing. I'm pretty sure it would take dozens of generations for "concentration of genetic damage" to result starting from a clean slate. As for what happened between Eden and Noah, if people had lived longer than we do today (see my post on lifespans), given that people would have far more offspring...is it not possible that the populations would increase exponentially and therefore reap genetic diversity

quote:
"Eight closely related people... that isn't too much better.
This is the first mention you've made of the flood. Are you sure this is what you meant? It sure seemed like you were talking about the origin of humanity-- "sorry about that, what I am trying to say is that I believe that the origin of humanity was in mesopotamia or Northen Africa. I then strayed from the subject to the flood (local btw, and I did mention the flood earlier in this thread) because I believe that the survivors(8) were the ones to repopulate and later disperse to other continents via land bridges 20-30 thousand years ago.Also the women wouldn't be that closely related had the time passed that I am talking about between Eden and the flood. I'm suggesting something along the line of 30-40 thousand year differences. Eden being around 60,000 years ago and the flood somewhere between 20 and 30,000 years ago. This of course depends on the populations increasing dramatically which then ties back with one of my earlier points about whether long life spans are possible, (see post #26)btw, what are people's thoughts about post #21

You're right, that did sound a little shady. My reference is the Hugh Ross book, The Genesis question. I realize that that might not seem legitimate to you so I will look into something else. Also, it would be nice if someone would also put in the effort to reference the comment about "concentration of genetic damage" being too aparent after a few generations as opposed to many as in proposed in post #27.
Thanks

Well, I don't like pulling the babel incident card. Not because I don't think it's legitimate but because it is impossible to test. If it were true however, this would account for genetis diversity. If I were to estimate when babel was, I would think sometime before migration of modern humans to other continents via land bridges 20-30 thousand years ago. I posted something similar in a welcome visitor's post I think.Again, not the answer you're looking for so I apologize but still not something to rule out entirely from my standpoint.

I didn't say it was science. Like I said there would be no way to test it. However if everyone involved in the incident at Babel were altered from one another at the genetic level(I'm not supposing how), and we are probably talking about alot of people, why not could this have spurred genetic diversity? Geniuine question

well if you say so. Come on, you would never let me get away with a response like that. I'm not saying your wrong, I would just like you to elaborate beyond ,"No it wouldn't"

Point taken. I need to do more investigating. next time see if you can make your argument without sarcasm. I understand your frustrations but few people become convinced of a alternate view via insult.