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Author Topic:   At what point should we look for a non-materialistic explanation?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 31 of 160 (537845)
12-01-2009 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 7:50 AM


Re: Clarification
My point was that there comes a magnitude of complexity observed when non-materialistic factors should be considered.
What level of complexity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 7:50 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:23 AM Straggler has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 160 (537860)
12-01-2009 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by PaulK
12-01-2009 2:05 AM


Re: Exodus Non-materialist Evidence
PaulK writes:
The problem is that whatever the magnitude of the claims the magnitude of the evidence actually produced is close to zero.
Hi Paul. Not so. There's the Biblical record which states that Mt Sinai is in Arabia. This motivated Wyatt and others to research the region and likely path of the Exodus.
Without going into all of the pertinent details as to the change of route which Jehovah ordered, the do-able path to the region in question led to Nuweiba Beach which entrapped the Israelites on all sides by mountains.
The beach happened to be at the most shallow area of the entire sea, then known as the Red Sea including the Gulf of Aqaba.
The wheel and axle shaped formations happened to be the only such formations known in the Gulf region.
These formations were photographed on both sides of the shallow area, most being wheel shape. The researchers were marine scientists who had research craft and equipment to do professional work.
On the Arabian side other pertinent corroborating evidence was discovered, being a split rock as per scripture, having a dried up water flow protruding from it. Also a black topped mountain (not volcanic) having the appearance of being burnt as per scripture.
Other evidence such as inscriptions of bulls and columns which could have been related to the Exodus, etc were cited.
Bottom line: No, Paul; there's ample evidence to warrant research by such secularist entities such as the National Geographic Society, etc. Interestingly and apparantly, Nat'l Geographic amd their Robert Ballard, marine archeologist appear to have no interest in researching this significant discovery so as to either falsify or verify.
PaulK writes:
We have coral formations that look as if they might contain wheels. If they do contain wheels they are almsot certainly far too young and made of the wrong materials to have anything to do with the Exodus.
Paul, this is a baseless assertion which was never verified conclusively in the debates.
PaulK writes:
We have photographs of what is claimed to be a gold covered chariot wheel, showing no signs of coral growth at all. Or any other indication of age.
Again, a debatable factor, neither imperically verified or falsified as are your other points.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2009 2:05 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2009 1:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 160 (537864)
12-01-2009 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by AZPaul3
11-30-2009 11:37 PM


Re: Science Rules
AZPaul3 writes:
Haven't we been looking for non-material explanations for the last 30,000+ years? And with nothing much to show for the effort except some pretty pictures, stirring music and lots and lots of pain and blood, I might add.
Only in the last 300 years with the embrace of science has man progressed in every measurable way. Why, in god's name, would we ever want to go back to something that has been such a colossal failure for so long?
Hi PaulAZ. That all cultures of mankind's known history have embraced the non-materialistic lends evidence to non-materialistic origin.
That the most blessed, civilized, free, industrious and prosperous of those cultures have been Biblical based and the most non-civilized, non-free and non-prosperous have been either other religions or secularist (i.e. communist) lends credence to the non-materialistic explanation.
Religion had its shot at ruling man's mind. It failed. It's science's turn.
It did not fail in North America during it's first 200 years, but declines as NT Biblical principles decline.
LOL! Secularism had it's big ruthless, bloody and non-productive shot last century when under secularist totalitarian regimes over 100 million of citizens in Europe and Asia were murdered by their own secularist, materialistic and anti-non-materialistic governments.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 11-30-2009 11:37 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 10:21 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 36 by Huntard, posted 12-01-2009 10:31 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 34 of 160 (537865)
12-01-2009 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 10:15 AM


Re: Science Rules
Hi PaulAZ. That all cultures of mankind's known history have embraced the non-materialistic lends evidence to non-materialistic origin.
Why?
Why do you consider belief in the supernatural to be evidence in favour of the actual existence of the supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:15 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:38 AM Straggler has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 160 (537866)
12-01-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
12-01-2009 7:57 AM


Re: Clarification
Straggler writes:
What level of complexity?
Hi Straggler.
To answer your question, the ever growing level of complexity being discovered and observed. Who's to know how much more there is to be learnt?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 7:57 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 10:32 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 36 of 160 (537868)
12-01-2009 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 10:15 AM


This again?
Buzsaw writes:
That the most blessed, civilized, free, industrious and prosperous of those cultures have been Biblical based...
Like those of the middle ages... Oh snap!
..and the most non-civilized, non-free and non-prosperous have been either other religions or secularist.
Like the modern western world... Oh snap!
It did not fail in North America during it's first 200 years, but declines as NT Biblical principles decline.
You don't even know your own country's history? America was never based on any biblical values.
LOL! Secularism had it's big ruthless, bloody and non-productive shot last century when under secularist totalitarian regimes over 100 million of citizens in Europe and Asia were murdered by their own secularist, materialistic and anti-non-materialistic governments.
All western governments currently in power are secularist.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:15 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 7:37 PM Huntard has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 37 of 160 (537869)
12-01-2009 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 10:23 AM


Complexity Scale
Hey Buz
The topic question is "At what point should we look for a non-materialistic explanation?"
You said:
Buz writes:
My point was that there comes a magnitude of complexity observed when non-materialistic factors should be considered.
To which I asked "What level of complexity?"
You haven't answered this. In fact you haven't even tried. So I'll ask again with some clarification.
At what level of complexity should we consider supernatural answers? How are you measuring complexity and can you give me some examples of things that are:
A) Definitely not complex enough to have required supernatural intervention.
B) Probably not quite complex enough to have required supernatural intervention.
C) Indeterminately complex.May or may not have required supernatural intervention.
D) Probably complex enough to have required supernatural intervention.
E) Definitely complex enough to have required supernatural intervention.
I am trying to get an idea of your scale of complexity here so that we can devise some objective measure of complexity to see what needs designing and what doesn't.
Does that sound fair?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:23 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:50 AM Straggler has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 160 (537870)
12-01-2009 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
12-01-2009 10:21 AM


Re: Belief
Straggler writes:
Why do you consider belief in the supernatural to be evidence in favour of the actual existence of the supernatural?
I have never cited belief as evidence to anything, Straggler. Belief in anything should be based upon evidence.
As I have stated in one thread, my conversion when I received Jesus as savior at age 10 came about in an evangelistic service when the evangelist spoke on fulfilled Biblical prophecy. Over the centuries I have observed other fulfillments, personal experiences and archeological discoveries, etc. which have bolstered my belief in the Biblical record, i.e. the non-materialistic explanation for life and all that is observed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 10:21 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 10:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 160 (537871)
12-01-2009 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Straggler
12-01-2009 10:32 AM


Re: Impetuousness
Straggler writes:
You haven't answered this. In fact you haven't even tried. So I'll ask again with some clarification.
Straggler, be advised that I'm not joined at the hip to my computer.
As you were demeaning, I was composing. I'm a slow thinking old guy. It takes a lot of time to think up and research stuff so as to not make myself look even more stupid than you all think. Lay off the carbohydrates, my friend. They appear to be making you hyper and impetuous.
God willing, I will get back to you and others. In the mean time I have a business and other things to attend to.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 10:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 11:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 40 of 160 (537872)
12-01-2009 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 10:38 AM


Re: Belief
Buz writes:
I have never cited belief as evidence to anything, Straggler.
Oh. Then what did you mean by the following?
Buz writes:
That all cultures of mankind's known history have embraced the non-materialistic lends evidence to non-materialistic origin.
This sure sounds like citing belief in the supernatural as evidence of the supernatural.
Edited by Straggler, : Fix quotes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 3:01 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 41 of 160 (537873)
12-01-2009 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 10:50 AM


Re: Impetuousness
Buz writes:
They appear to be making you hyper and impetuous.
I am always a bit hyper and usually more than a little impetuous.
Buz writes:
Straggler writes:
You haven't answered this. In fact you haven't even tried. So I'll ask again with some clarification.
At what level of complexity should we consider supernatural answers? Etc.
Straggler, be advised that I'm not joined at the hip to my computer. As you were demeaning, I was composing. I'm a slow thinking old guy. It takes a lot of time to think up and research stuff so as to not make myself look even more stupid than you all think.
OK. But you did answer my original question about the level of complexity required with fairly pointless non-answer. Maybe it would be better for you to do your research and then get back with a fuller answer rather than post intermediate answers and get the inevitable replies pointing out their inadequacy.
Buz writes:
God willing, I will get back to you and others.
We will no doubt all be looking forward to that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:50 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 42 of 160 (537881)
12-01-2009 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 7:50 AM


Re: Clarification
My point was that there comes a magnitude of complexity observed when non-materialistic factors should be considered.
That's cool. Could you specify at what level of magnitude that non-materialistic factors come into play?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 7:50 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 7:57 PM Larni has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 43 of 160 (537884)
12-01-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 8:56 AM


Re: Exodus Non-materialist Evidence
quote:
Hi Paul. Not so. There's the Biblical record which states that Mt Sinai is in Arabia. This motivated Wyatt and others to research the region and likely path of the Exodus.
Wyatt misunderstanding the Bible is not evidence that he is in any way correct !
quote:
Without going into all of the pertinent details as to the change of route which Jehovah ordered, the do-able path to the region in question led to Nuweiba Beach which entrapped the Israelites on all sides by mountains.
Since the actual evidence indicates that the story is much exaggerated (at the very least !) even if what you said were true it would not be significant evidence.
quote:
The beach happened to be at the most shallow area of the entire sea, then known as the Red Sea including the Gulf of Aqaba.
Which is not much shallower than the rest of it...
quote:
The wheel and axle shaped formations happened to be the only such formations known in the Gulf region.
These formations were photographed on both sides of the shallow area, most being wheel shape. The researchers were marine scientists who had research craft and equipment to do professional work.
Even if it is true that they are found nowhere else (and that has not been verified) it is still not significant evidence of the Exodus.
quote:
On the Arabian side other pertinent corroborating evidence was discovered, being a split rock as per scripture, having a dried up water flow protruding from it. Also a black topped mountain (not volcanic) having the appearance of being burnt as per scripture.
Other evidence such as inscriptions of bulls and columns which could have been related to the Exodus, etc were cited.
In other words, nothing much, only weak circumstantial evidence.
quote:
Bottom line: No, Paul; there's ample evidence to warrant research by such secularist entities such as the National Geographic Society, etc. Interestingly and apparantly, Nat'l Geographic amd their Robert Ballard, marine archeologist appear to have no interest in researching this significant discovery so as to either falsify or verify.
If you have ample evidence where is it ? You certainly haven't produced it.
quote:
Paul, this is a baseless assertion which was never verified conclusively in the debates.
It is certainly not baseless. The wheels of the XVIIIth dynasty chariots were wood with some bronze and NO iron. The coral formations were said to show signs of rust - by Wyatt supporters !
All the evidence on coral growth rates tells us that we do not need more than a few hundred years for the coral growth shown.
If the best you can honestly argue is that the evidence isn't completely conclusive - then it's a lot stronger than anything you've produced.
quote:
Again, a debatable factor, neither imperically verified or falsified as are your other points.
Unless you are claiming that the photograph is a total fake, this is a complete falsehood. The photograph showed no signs of age, nor of coral growth on the wheel. That is a solid fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 8:56 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 10:55 PM PaulK has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 160 (537898)
12-01-2009 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Straggler
12-01-2009 10:51 AM


Re: Belief
Straggler writes:
Oh. Then what did you mean by the following?
Buz writes:
That all cultures of mankind's known history have embraced the non-materialistic lends evidence to non-materialistic origin.
This sure sounds like citing belief in the supernatural as evidence of the supernatural.
Straggler, all of the non-materialistic evidence to which I have alluded is just that, evidence which is effected by the non-materialistic, which folks refer to as supernatural.
Like the DNA, the Exodus evidence cited is material but as per the topic title, some IDists regard it as having a non-materialistic explanation. Savvy, bud?
Realistically, however, what is regarded as supernatural is actually a higher dimension of the existing material which is invisible to mankind, but which, according to the Biblical record and even some accults, etc, has the capability to make itself visible to mankind. I believe one terminology for this would be supranatural.
Perhaps (I say 'perhaps') particles within the cosmos which have the appearance of moving in and out of existence border on the supranatural. If so, perhaps also this may be considered as science being obliged to begin dipping the toe into the uncharted waters of the supranatural. After all, isn't some mysterious aspects of QM and string theory non-materialistic in nature, inspiring some groups to believe this and others to believe that, relative to a given group's consensus, i.e. belief?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 10:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 12-01-2009 5:05 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 46 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2009 6:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4887 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 45 of 160 (537914)
12-01-2009 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Buzsaw
12-01-2009 3:01 PM


Re: Belief
Hi Buzsaw, just realized you were jabbing at my favorite sciences. Can't let that go by.
After all, isn't some mysterious aspects of QM and string theory non-materialistic in nature, inspiring some groups to believe this and others to believe that, relative to a given group's consensus, i.e. belief?
It is 'belief' in the same way that you 'believe' in gravity; you cannot 100% know anything for sure. When speaking of a theory, we usually put 'believe' at the front like "believe in plate tectonics" or "believe in evolution." It's mainly just a way of saying that you support one explanation over another- the facts are there, but the reasons are debatable. (Of course, the better the theory, the more specific the points)
As per your reference of QM and string theory, no, they are not belief in the sense of 'faith.' Most of the things predicted by QM have been observed, and so it is pretty much accepted as fact by all of the physics community. The only discontinuity lies in the cutting edge areas like ST. Because the science is so advanced, then of course there is going to be a some confusion; we simply don't have the right materials to check it out directly yet (at least, not until the LHC is at maximum power). However, what gives these as-yet 'unproven' theories weight is that they fit the model and equations nearly perfectly. I don't claim to be as intelligent about the subject as CD or SG of course, but I'm pretty sure I've got the gist of it.
T&U
Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 3:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2009 6:28 PM Teapots&unicorns has not replied

  
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