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Author Topic:   At what point should we look for a non-materialistic explanation?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 160 (537930)
12-01-2009 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Larni
12-01-2009 1:09 PM


Re: Clarification
Larni writes:
That's cool. Could you specify at what level of magnitude that non-materialistic factors come into play?
This exerpt from this informative cite cites an enlightening degree of complexity magnitude, sufficient for arousing astute observers relative to the non-materialistic causative entities effecting observable evidence for non-materialistic explanations.
This whole structure of understanding has now been turned on its head. A project called ENCODE recently reported an intensive study of the transcripts (copies of RNA produced from the DNA) of just 1% of the human genome.1,2 Their findings include the following inferences:
About 93% of the genome is transcribed (not 3%, as expected). Further study with more wide-ranging methods may raise this figure to 100%. Because much energy and coordination is required for transcription this means that probably the whole genome is used by the cell and there is no such thing as ‘junk DNA’.
Exons are not gene-specific but are modules that can be joined to many different RNA transcripts. One exon (i.e. one part of one gene) can be used in combination with up to 33 different genes located on 14 different chromosomes. This means that one exon can specify one part shared in common by many different proteins.
There is no ‘beads on a string’ linear arrangement of genes, but rather an interleaved structure of overlapping segments, with typically 5, 7, 9 or more transcripts coming from the one ‘gene’.
Not just one strand, but both strands (sense and anti-sense) of the DNA are fully transcribed.
Transcription proceeds not just one way but both backwards and forwards.
Transcription factors can be tens or hundreds of thousands of base-pairs away from the gene that they control, even on different chromosomes.
There is not just one START site, but many, in each particular gene region.
There is not just one transcription triggering (switching) system for each region, but many.
The authors conclude:
These results are so astonishing, so shocking, that it is going to take an awful lot more work to untangle what is really going on in cells.
‘An interleaved genomic organization poses important mechanistic challenges for the cell. One involves the [use of] the same DNA molecules for multiple functions. The overlap of functionally important sequence motifs must be resolved in time and space for this organization to work properly. Another challenge is the need to compartmentalize RNA or mask RNAs that could potentially form long double-stranded regions, to prevent RNA-RNA interactions that could prompt apoptosis [programmed cell death].’
This concern for the safety of so many RNA molecules being produced in such a small space is well-founded. RNA is a long single-strand molecule not unlike a long piece of sticky-tapeit will stick to any nearby surface, including itself! Unless properly coordinated, it will all scrunch up into a sticky mess.
These results are so astonishing, so shocking, that it is going to take an awful lot more work to untangle what is really going on in cells. And the molecular taxonomists, who have been drawing up evolutionary histories (‘phylogenies’) for everything, are going to have to undo all their years of ‘junk DNA’-based historical reconstructions and wait for the full implications to emerge before they try again. One of the supposedly ‘knock-down’ arguments that humans have a common ancestor with chimpanzees is shared ‘non-functional’ DNA coding. That argument just got thrown out the window.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Larni, posted 12-01-2009 1:09 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Larni, posted 12-02-2009 5:05 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 160 (537933)
12-01-2009 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
12-01-2009 1:56 PM


Re: Exodus Non-materialist Evidence
PaulK writes:
Wyatt misunderstanding the Bible is not evidence that he is in any way correct !
Wyatt didn't misunderstand the Bible. He simply read it and did the research, discovering a treasure trove of corroborative evidence that the Biblical cite was the real Mt Sinai and the bogus traditional Mt Sinai, void of all of the needed corroborative evidence was erroneous.
Without going into all of the pertinent details as to the change of route which Jehovah ordered, the do-able path to the region in question led to Nuweiba Beach which entrapped the Israelites on all sides by mountains.
Since the actual evidence indicates that the story is much exaggerated (at the very least !) even if what you said were true it would not be significant evidence.
Though some evidence is debatable, none has been imperically refuted given the Egyptians were prone to altering data for personal and national reasons. Again, as with conventional science, the debatable and more obscure unknowns can be supported by sufficient corroborative evidence supportive to a given POV.
Which is not much shallower than the rest of it...
Nonsense! It is significantly more shallow than any other area of the sea. There is also the likelihood that large vessels and erosion over the millenia have deepened the middle shipping lane area from what it was at the time of he Exodus.
PaulK writes:
Buz: The wheel and axle shaped formations happened to be the only such formations known in the Gulf region.
These formations were photographed on both sides of the shallow area, most being wheel shape. The researchers were marine scientists who had research craft and equipment to do professional work.
Paul: Even if it is true that they are found nowhere else (and that has not been verified) it is still not significant evidence of the Exodus.
Says the materialistic exclusionist. You keep on ignoring the corroborative evidence cited.
As for the rest of your message relative to rust and coral, etc. the debris was obviously more than a few hundred years. The coral photographed could well have been very old. You cited no evidence that the coral was only a few hundred years old. The rust could have been from the tires and axles. Natural iron, was used long before the iron age perse as attested to in the book of Genesis and elsewhere. This again is all debatable and not for this thread but again corroborated evidence in the region is supportive to the Biblical record.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2009 1:56 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by PaulK, posted 12-02-2009 2:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 160 (537971)
12-02-2009 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Larni
12-02-2009 5:05 AM


Re: Clarification
Larni writes:
Please could you explain why this DNA information should mean we should stop using the scientific method and embrace non-materialistic methods of exploring the world?
Hi Larni. Some of you people put words in my messages that aren't there. I haven't advocated that we stop using the scientific method, nor was that the just of the link.
My position is that science should stop avoiding the non-materialistic evidence research that just might reveal that there is indeed a higher dimension of intelligence working in the universe than the materialistic explanation of things observed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Larni, posted 12-02-2009 5:05 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 12-02-2009 1:41 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 61 by Coyote, posted 12-02-2009 1:56 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 64 by Larni, posted 12-02-2009 2:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 160 (538067)
12-03-2009 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Coyote
12-02-2009 1:56 PM


Re: Clarification
Coyote writes:
If it is non-material how do you propose that science might study it?
Or are you suggesting that science should accept scripture and "divine revelation" as empirical evidence?
Hi Coyote. How many times do I need to say it? The evidence is materialistic and as per topic title, the explanation is not-materialistic, as per the examples which I have cited. Have you been reading?
Here's how it works. The Biblical record alleges certain events which entail the non-materialistic explanation. Observable materialistic research and history etc, in time, attest to the veracity of the non-materialistic explained claims or events recorded in the Biblical record.
With DNA, the more complexity that is discovered via research, the more plausible the non-materialistic explanation becomes. With archeological research, such as the alleged Exodus site, the more corroborative evidence discovered in the region of the chariot debris in the sea, the more plausible the non-materialistic explanation for what is observed becomes.
Conventional science and secularism appears to have no inclination for consideration to the possibility of a non-materialistic explanation of anything. Secularists would rather eat worms than to admit to a non-materialistic explanation for even one of the scores of fulfilled Biblical propecies, such as the amazing phenomena of Israel's preservation and restoration to return to the homeland after 19 long centuries of global exile in multiple nations, many from the opposite regions of the planet.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix word.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Coyote, posted 12-02-2009 1:56 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Larni, posted 12-03-2009 9:22 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 78 by Coyote, posted 12-03-2009 1:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 79 by lyx2no, posted 12-03-2009 4:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 160 (538068)
12-03-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Straggler
12-02-2009 1:41 PM


Re: Ethereal Evidence
Straggler writes:
What is the "non-materialistic evidence" you are speaking of? Can you show us or refer us to some of this etheral evidence?
Hi Straggler. See my response to Coyote. I repeat: the evidence is materialistic. The explanation is non-materialistic. Perhaps if I repeat my position enough times, you folks will get it.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Straggler, posted 12-02-2009 1:41 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 160 (538080)
12-03-2009 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Larni
12-03-2009 9:22 AM


Re: Clarification
Larni writes:
This is where I lose you, Buzz.
What you appear to be saying is that when things become complicated the chance of the supernatural operating increases.
I would like to ask you how this is different from people not understanding lighting at one point in time was (because at the time it was a too complicated explanation) and concluding a supernatural explanation?
The lightning is material but at one time the explanation was supernatural (the anger of Zeus for example).
But as we can understand more and more complicated things (in this case that lightning has perfectly material explanations) we can (and do) replace supernatural explanations with material explanations.
You seem to say because we don't know now everything now that we can consequently look to non-material explanations when we have a gap in our knowledge.
How many non-material explanations have been found to be correct against the ones shown (like lightning in the example above) to be correct?
Good question, Larni.
Biblical implication is that there was no lightning, rain as we know it or rainbows etc before the flood when global temperature was evenly perfectly suited for very long life and larger, more robust life as per dinosaurs, mammoths and tropical vegetation in the region of the poles. So in this respect, lightning is a materialistic phenomena effected by a non-materialistically explained event.
For that matter, perhaps the alleged global flood came about by some non-materialistic explanation, being that the Biblical ID god, Jehovah may have tilted the planet a few degrees or some other materialistic event beyond my ability to explain in order to effect the alleged global flood.
Biblically speaking, everything observed, including lightening was non-materialistically designed. All of the laws of physics were implemented by divine design.
Why do I so adamantly believe this? Because for 74 years I have observed, via study, research and personal experience, sufficient multiple corroborated non-materalistically explained phenomenal evidence to empirically convince me that there is ultimately a non-materialistic explanation (I say 'explanation) for all that is observed.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Larni, posted 12-03-2009 9:22 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Huntard, posted 12-03-2009 1:13 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 77 by Larni, posted 12-03-2009 1:47 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 160 (538122)
12-03-2009 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Huntard
12-03-2009 1:13 PM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Huntard writes:
And might I enquire as to how you know there is a non-materialistic explanation for these materialistic phenomena? And how do you know it is indeed your god that is the source for that?
Hi Huntard. To fully answer your question would require a book, especially the personal experience aspect. I'll try to concisely cite a few of the corroborating evidences that have brought me to empirically know that Jehovah, god of the Bible exists and that the Biblical record of expanations for materialistic obversations is reliable. I say concisely because it would lead off topic in order to fully cover or debate them.
1. Exodus evidence cited.
2. Complexity of things like DNA, etc.
3. Fulfilled Prophecy pertaing to Israel's restoration at a time when the surrounding nations call for their demise and claim their land.
4. Prophecy of nations which bless/help Israel which Jehovah has promised to, intern, bless. Prophecies of cursings of nations which curse Israel which God will punish.
5. The End time fulfillment of Ezekiel, Zechariah and others that the nations will be drawn into the Middle East to war and which will eventually invade Israel, calling for them to give up their land etc.
6. Jehovah's promise via the prophets to preserve Israel and fight for them against their enemies up until the nations actually invade and occupy (Armageddon) when they will then fight each other for the prize and Jesus comes to destroy the armies assembled at the the Kedron Valley (Valley of Jehosaphat) just outside Israel.
7. Prophecies of other corroborating phenomena to happen in the last days which we observe in our day, never before to have been observed on Earth, as follows.
8. Emerging cashless global monetary system requiring marks and numbers to buy and sell. This phomena is emerging and imo, the never before hyper inflationary trend via global non-backed printing of paper money globally which will likely result in the mark and number global monetary system which some are already calling for. See Revelation 13.
9. The emergence of a global empire encompassing every nation, tribe and tongue of the planet, i.e. the New World Order which the Bush's Obama and other world leaders have called for.
10 Prophecies of the 1st advent of Jesus including the crucifixion events the birth, etc written before the fact.
11. Fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy in the Luke 21 Olivet Discourse when he prophesied the destruction which was to happen in Jerusalem and that it would be occupied by Gentiles until the Gentile occupation would end. This was fulfilled in the 1967 Six Day War when the Jews marched into the old walled city and began their occupation.
12. The prophecies concerning climate change and the rapid occurances of destruction relative to the climate etc.
13 Prophecies of the ability of all nations becoming able to observe and event in on location on earth simultaneously, i.e. modern media tech. Revelation 13 alludes to a speaking image which would be worshipped by all nations tribes and tongues. TV tech fits the bill, as emerging Islamic domination will continue the rapid advancement into world domination via violence. The penalty of refusal to worship the image will be punishable by death, as per Shariah Islamic law. Many who refuse will be beheaded as per Revelation 20 and Islamic tradition.
14. The prophecy of great tribulation and suffering of Christians, known as severe tribulation in the end time. This is ongoing in Muslim and Communist totalitarian nations.
15. Phenomenal increase in knowledge and travel as per Daniel 12, pertaining the the end times.
16. Increasing global cloudiness since the 1950s coincides with the Biblical prophecies that Jesus will come with clouds and the sun & moon will be partially darkened. Perhaps I can find the time to do a thread on my hypothesis as to how the global pre-flood canopy likely will relatively suddenly be restored to the planet, effecting climatic paradise on the planet for the prophesied millenial kingdom.
17. Falling stars Had a Biblical prophet envisioned a satelite at night he would describe it as a star. Jesus and prophets allude to falling stars before the return of messiah. We know actual stars many times greater than earth could not fall to earth. But now we have all of the man made lights up in the sky, capable of falling which will likely happen when messiah takes control. As well, if a terrorist gets the right tech to shut the grid down etc that could be the explanation.
18. Isaiah 3 prophesies that in the latter days that "children will oppress you and women will rule over you." Need I say more on this as the trend is going and as discipline of children wanes? In some nations, desperate hungry orphans resort to crime and in places like Iran, youth thug militia help the government keep the sheeples in line. Now our lustrous president envisions a civilian army as big as our military to help out in his ambitions to change America The Nazi's had their oppressive youth movement, etc.
20 Personal experience. I have personally had one empirically sudden healing by anointing of oil and prayer of the elders. I have stated other manifestations at EvC in the past. I'll cite one for example. I quit my first good job working on a geophysical crew in the mountains in Wyoming, a job I loved. We did not have to work Sundays, my church day then but the work picked up and it became necessary for me to work Sundays if I stayed. I opted to quit because I regarded church attendance as priority. I joined the Air Force in 1954 when the Air Force gave aptitude tests to determine the training. I was ordered to train for and become a jet mechanic, a critical field which required weekend duty. Being a critical field it was against AF regs to change duty. However while at Bob Jones University where I attended 3 semesters I took advanced typing, being the only male in the class as I wanted to learn to type well. To make it short, after jet training at Amarillo AFB I was sent to Griffiss AFB in NY state. Providence (non-materialistic explanation) had it that the hanger office needed a clerk to type up stuff etc. The first week there, I was called into the office and asked if I would like a five day a week job in the office. Of course I was elated. In short, I was at Griffiss for the whole four year term, first in the hanger office and then in the Squadron office as finance clerk. At Rome where the base was there is Delta Lake Bible Camp where I was able to get lots of inspiration, hear great preachers and meet local folks who treated me well, having me out to dinners and allowing use of their boat and cabin which they owned on Delta Lake.
If this were a lone phenomena of such magnitude, it would not it wouldn't necessarily be regarded as imperical evidence but it is just one example of scores of remarkable answers to prayer, etc.
Here's how it works with Jehovah.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with ... And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.
And this:
James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
And this:
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him.
My apologies for the length of this message, but hopefully this will suffice as an answer to yours and other inquiries as to why I adamantly hold to the Biblical record as reliable for non-materialistic explanations of material observations.
Having said the above, much of what I have observed I cannot convey so as to convince anyone else. Perhaps it will motivate some agnostic or athiest to hunt for truth by considering all of the avenues for explanations as per your signature.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Huntard, posted 12-03-2009 1:13 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 6:22 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2009 2:14 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 137 by Meldinoor, posted 12-08-2009 2:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 160 (538155)
12-04-2009 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Larni
12-04-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Larni writes:
Could you specify exactly how the material DNA has a non-material explantion and in which way the DNA is explained?
I know I've asked before but you reply to this point has not been clear to me. Could you explain your reasoning in the most simplistic terms availible (to help my poor noggin from getting confused )
Sorry to be like a dog with a bone but it would help me greatly see where you are comming from.
Hi Larni. Did you read and assimilate
this link which I cited in message 6 of page one of this thread?
As Lyx2no implicates articulately, they who understand it better than I can explain it better than I.
If you want to read the DNA exerpt which I cited, go to message 6 of page one, but to better answer your question, you should take the time to do a reading of the whole page.
For some reason I cannot url link the message # 6 of page one. The properties takes me to the top of the page rather than the message.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 6:22 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 9:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 160 (538156)
12-04-2009 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Larni
12-04-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Larni writes:
The thing is that non-material explanations have never been shown to explain anything with any rigour: why then should they be used at all?
Hi Larni. I double posted so I'm editing in the above from your message 64 for a response.
How else would you better explain the Exodus data which I have cited than a non-materialistic explanation? The materialistic minded folks have shown no interest in a materialistic research of the archeologically significant site.
Edited by Buzsaw, : change message

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 6:22 AM Larni has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 160 (538160)
12-04-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Larni
12-04-2009 9:03 AM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Larni writes:
It's full of bad science, Buz.
Without an explanation, you're blindly asserting yada. I suppose other threads would be necessary to debunk the whole page full of scientific data. Perhaps you could succinctly address your assertion relative to the exerpt which I cited in message 6.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 9:03 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 10:48 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 93 by Wounded King, posted 12-04-2009 11:06 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 160 (538248)
12-04-2009 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by PaulK
12-04-2009 2:14 PM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
PaulK writes:
Worshipping images is AGAINST Sharia law.
Hi Paul.
Likely it will be that two way TV will be spot checked to make sure the sheeples are worshipping as Islamics do in the view if the TV which will cite Mecca on the image or something of that nature. The TV or whatever advanced tech is in place at the time will be the image, not some hand crafted idol which Shariah law forbids.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2009 2:14 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by PaulK, posted 12-05-2009 1:19 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 105 by dwise1, posted 12-05-2009 1:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 160 (538250)
12-04-2009 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Wounded King
12-04-2009 11:06 AM


DNA Gene Problem
Wounded King writes:
I'm also not sure what sort of argument for a non-materialist basis any of this is supposed to form, you still seem to be saying nothing but 'oooh! Complex => god did it', your just taking a longer time to say it.
Thanks WK, for taking the time to respond. I see that perhaps I could have chosen a better exerpt for the purpose of this thread. How about the following exerpt from the same link? This looks pretty convincing to me as to how rare mutations in DNA improve a creature's ability o survive. What about this sequence and simultaneous gene problem, etc.
Here is how the imaginary part is supposed to happen: On rare occasions a mutation in DNA improves a creature's ability to survive, so it is more likely to reproduce (natural selection). That is evolution's only tool for making new creatures. It might even work if it took just one gene to make and control one part. But parts of living creatures are constructed of intricate components with connections that all need to be in place for the thing to work, controlled by many genes that have to act in the proper sequence. Natural selection would not choose parts that did not have all their components existing, in place, connected, and regulated because the parts would not work. Thus all the right mutations (and none of the destructive ones) must happen at the same time by pure chance. That is physically impossible. To illustrate just how impossible it is, imagine this: on the ground are all the materials needed to build a house (nails, boards, shingles, windows, etc.). We tie a hammer to the wagging tail of a dog and let him wander about the work site for as long as you please, even millions of years. The swinging hammer on the dog is as likely to build a house as mutation-natural selection is to make a single new working part in an animal, let alone a new creature.
Only mutations in the reproductive (germ) cells of an animal or plant would be passed on. Mutations in the eye or skin of an animal would not matter. Mutations in DNA happen fairly often, but most are repaired or destroyed by mechanisms in animals and plants. All known mutations in animal and plant germ cells are neutral, harmful, or fatal. But evolutionists are eternally optimistic. They believe that millions of beneficial mutations built every type of creature that ever existed
Edited by Buzsaw, : Change message title and add url.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Wounded King, posted 12-04-2009 11:06 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Wounded King, posted 12-05-2009 4:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 160 (538550)
12-07-2009 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by PaulK
12-05-2009 1:19 AM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
PaulK writes:
Aside from the fact that the whole TV idea is an incredibly dubious interpretation, there is still no requirement in Islam to actually worship a TV picture, a TV or anything that could be shown on a TV. Just the opposite. In other words this scenario is NOT plausible and can be entirely attributed to your imagination. Nothing supernatural is required to "explain" it at all.
Your strawman argument does not address my postion. I did not allege that there was in place now any Islamic requirement to worship and image on TV. My position is that the tech is advancing and it is feasible that given the power and tech, which appears to be emerging this could soon be implemented. It is a fact that in some totalitarien cultures kneeling and praying towards Mecca is either required or urged.
Edited by AdminModulous, : fixed quote tag

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by PaulK, posted 12-05-2009 1:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 12-08-2009 12:48 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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